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YC or extra 10m

S

smeagol


Referees in America
Link to livestream, start at 7:00 using the YT timer

Context - this was a championship QF. I wanted to set a high standard regarding cynical/negative play. The card was for being well offside, even through the contact itself was minimal.

PS the home side records/streams almost all of their games; I put a bug into the ear of a teacher (who is also a referee) about adding a ref mic.
 
3 thoughts:
1. YC & extra 10 OK. Clearly material. But I wonder why you didn't play more advantage ... black had good ball when you blew the whistle. Or were you overly keen to pull a card?
2. the original offside penalty at 6:56 looked a little harsh
3. had the chap who marked the halfway line been drinking?
 
Hi Smeagol,

I didnt see any offside at 6.56.

I though the YC was very harsh, 3mins into the game I personally if trying to set a high standard would have advanced 10m and had a clear chat with the capt that there was to be no more.

I would have explored the advantage a bit more.

Are they prescription sun glasses ?
 
W8 never got back 10m so fair penalty there, and looks like ran back but joined the ruck in at the side too.

Was the YC harsh? Well, did it work - did the teams clean up their play?
 
Shelflife said:
Hi Smeagol,

I didnt see any offside at 6.56.

I though the YC was very harsh, 3mins into the game I personally if trying to set a high standard would have advanced 10m and had a clear chat with the capt that there was to be no more.

I would have explored the advantage a bit more.

Are they prescription sun glasses ?
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I'm with this. I don't think you really had an original offsides call there, though understandable how it may have looked like one from your perspective.

The second penalty after the quick-tap, I'd say debatable for a YC. Being so early on in the game, I probably would've awarded another penalty there, and slowed the game down to have a stern word with the defending team's captain and player about repeated infringements will quickly turn into cards, that they should know better at this high level of a match. Unless there was already a slew of repeated infringements from that team that already occurred in the 6ish minutes prior (I would imagine not).

I'd also consider what level of play this is. They look like youngish lads. Is this college or even High School level?...which division? I noticed the video says one of the teams is a B-side.
 
Dickie E said:
3 thoughts:
1. YC & extra 10 OK. Clearly material. But I wonder why you didn't play more advantage ... black had good ball when you blew the whistle. Or were you overly keen to pull a card?
2. the original offside penalty at 6:56 looked a little harsh
3. had the chap who marked the halfway line been drinking?
Click to expand...
1 - I brought it back because I didn't think enough territory had been gained given how most of the White players behind the 8 were also offside.
2 - fair. I saw the jump, but didn't see the feet.
3 - I would hope not, as this took place at a Jesuit boarding school.
Shelflife said:
Are they prescription sun glasses ?
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Transitions lenses on bifocals, the frames are flexon and the lenses are also polycarbonate. I've had issues with corneal abrasions, so contacts are a no-go.
Volun-selected said:
Was the YC harsh? Well, did it work - did the teams clean up their play?
Click to expand...
In this context, yes.
jdeagro said:
I'd also consider what level of play this is. They look like youngish lads. Is this college or even High School level?...which division? I noticed the video says one of the teams is a B-side.
Click to expand...
High school state quarterfinal. For Blue, they call it their B side, but it's their sophomores and juniors (some of whom play A side). White is a club side that pulls from the far southern suburbs of Chicago. For a regular game at this level, I agree that 10m is sufficient. Come playoff time, I think it is fair to expect teams to know better.
 
Having watched just a few minutes I'm curious to know how much experience referee has and how much coaching they they get.
 
smeagol said:
High school state quarterfinal. For Blue, they call it their B side, but it's their sophomores and juniors (some of whom play A side). White is a club side that pulls from the far southern suburbs of Chicago. For a regular game at this level, I agree that 10m is sufficient. Come playoff time, I think it is fair to expect teams to know better.
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Gotcha. TBH, I've been playing for 20 years in the metro NY region, and high school rugby here has always been either almost non-existent or very grass roots for the kids playing in it, minus one or two exceptional schools (maybe it's different in your area). It's pretty much the first time 95% of them have touched a rugby ball. Playoffs or not, IMO, they're still both learning the game and gaining experience on how the flow of the game goes (e.g. how to react in a given situation, such as the ref's whistle). Some players at that level are still playing in their first season or few games, and are only playing in said playoff game because they are majorly athletic albeit not really experienced in rugby yet.

While I don't think your decision was necessarily wrong, I just personally wouldn't've escalated to a YC just yet, that early on. Once you do, you can't really backtrack for future similar incidents. So that sets a pretty high no turning back point with 74 minutes of game time to go. Also, I prefer not to look to card players (unless it's an egregious event) as a first step, if I'm comfortable with the other tools we have as refs will control the situation (e.g. stern warning to the player and captain to show YC is next and your player was that close to getting one), and then slowly escalating up the list of tools we have as needed.
 
"I brought it back because I didn't think enough territory had been gained given how most of the White players behind the 8 were also offside."

Ok but advantage doesn't have to accrue on the first phase of play. If Black have good clean ball on several phases and are continuing to move forward I'd suggest letting it breathe a bit longer. And maybe White 8 stays on the pitch with just an admonishment
 
smeagol said:
Experience - 13 years
Coaching, as in 1v1 with a write-up and feedback - About once every two years.
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Good work....I just think you would benefit from some real direction in terms of positioning, scanning for offside, proactive management etc.

Edit.... this to help assist/ develop you as a referee not meant as simply a criticism.
 
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Decorily said:
Good work....I just think you would benefit from some real direction in terms of positioning, scanning for offside, proactive management etc.

Edit.... this to help assist/ develop you as a referee not meant as simply a criticism.
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Understood and appreciated, which is why I bring stuff here for feedback, good and bad.

I am in that purgatory of being neither a newer ref nor am I being considered for promotion within my society based on the assignments I get. The last time I was coached was fall ‘22, before that it was fall ‘19.

I know which teams record games, so whenever I end up on one, I flag it and re-watch it (and usually cringe).
 
smeagol said:
Understood and appreciated, which is why I bring stuff here for feedback, good and bad.

I am in that purgatory of being neither a newer ref nor am I being considered for promotion within my society based on the assignments I get. The last time I was coached was fall ‘22, before that it was fall ‘19.

I know which teams record games, so whenever I end up on one, I flag it and re-watch it (and usually cringe).
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It seems to me that your approach/attitude deserves better support from your Society.
 
By the way, I watched a little more of the video, and can understand your perspective on the level of play that game was. The players are actually pretty well formed in execution of the game for that age group (especially compared to what I'm used to seeing in my area). It appears those schools have international players as well (who I'm assuming have touched a rugby ball before high school). Cheers!
 
smeagol said:
Understood and appreciated, which is why I bring stuff here for feedback, good and bad.

I am in that purgatory of being neither a newer ref nor am I being considered for promotion within my society based on the assignments I get. The last time I was coached was fall ‘22, before that it was fall ‘19.

I know which teams record games, so whenever I end up on one, I flag it and re-watch it (and usually cringe).
Click to expand...
Would it do any good to contact your society and tell them that you would like to progress and would appreciate some help.

I know some refs are happy where they are and the society may think that seeing as you havent said anything that you might be happy too.

Squeaky wheel and all that
 
Shelflife said:
Would it do any good to contact your society and tell them that you would like to progress and would appreciate some help.

I know some refs are happy where they are and the society may think that seeing as you havent said anything that you might be happy too.

Squeaky wheel and all that
Click to expand...

It's my experience that the referees who shout the loudest are the ones that get watched and progressed (if good enough).
Those who just get on with it can slip below the radar.
 
Phil E said:
It's my experience that the referees who shout the loudest are the ones that get watched and progressed (if good enough).
Those who just get on with it can slip below the radar.
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In 2022, I told the society development officer (who also happens to be in charge of regional assignments) that my immediate goal re: progressing was getting a spot on the regional club 7s circuit (that has produced two national champions since 2021, and two other high finishes). Getting to the 15s panel at the next level was not going to happen quickly, so I set my sights on a goal I thought I could reach more quickly.

Last summer, I was offered a runout at one of the circuit events nearby, but got yanked four days before the event and was told "I wasn't ready." This year, there are two events within a reasonable distance for me, and I've heard crickets.

Given what I know and have heard, I likely shot myself in the foot by pursuing the 7s route - there is a trend of blooding younger referees with potential via the circuit, and I turn 37 this year.
 
Perhaps reach out to a fellow referee who is at a higher level and ask them to watch you in action and see if they can assist you. I feel there are possibly some bad habits that you have picked up over the years that may need to be broken. Have you been given 'work ons' by coaches who have watched you?
 
smeagol said:
In 2022, I told the society development officer (who also happens to be in charge of regional assignments) that my immediate goal re: progressing was getting a spot on the regional club 7s circuit (that has produced two national champions since 2021, and two other high finishes). Getting to the 15s panel at the next level was not going to happen quickly, so I set my sights on a goal I thought I could reach more quickly.

Last summer, I was offered a runout at one of the circuit events nearby, but got yanked four days before the event and was told "I wasn't ready." This year, there are two events within a reasonable distance for me, and I've heard crickets.

Given what I know and have heard, I likely shot myself in the foot by pursuing the 7s route - there is a trend of blooding younger referees with potential via the circuit, and I turn 37 this year.
Click to expand...
Bluntly, they're not going to invest in you for 7s, knowing what I do about selections for the Stuff That Matters.

In your shoes I'd concentrate on 15s.

For a small fee - regaularly posting "like" to all my posts, for example :) - I can take a look at a couple of videos for you.
 
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