What value the TMO?
- Thread starter BikingBud
- Start date
no one seems to be able to say, definitively, what happens in the TMO bunker.
I expect that
- it varies from competition to competition, broadcaster to broadcaster, week to week
- the people who really know (the TMOs themselves, the FPROs, WR ...) are bound to secrecy.
The reason why we have "the French TV director" stereotype is because it's earned. It is beyond a joke and I can't believe world rugby allow it.
Late in the game they put a replay up that Amashukeli saw and reversed a decision. I'm all for home ground advantage but this takes it too far.
I would offer that WR's own TMO protocol would be a good place to start and then consider if the objectives of that protocol were met:
Bath didn't play well enough to win.
BUT there were numerous events that should have been formally reviewed primarily to follow:
And perhaps given the still above it would prompt a Formal Referral:
I am again concerned that player safety is at risk here but too many can't operate beyond their own prejudice and express the feeling that raising the issue is a Bath fan bleating but the result was not and remains not part of my concern.
Bath didn't play well enough to win.
BUT there were numerous events that should have been formally reviewed primarily to follow:
But they didn't even consider reviewing and that decision has to be the TMO's call.
He didn't interject and then was not supported by a director that was unable to find the required angles
He was silent.
He singularly failed his primary responsibility - Safety.
His primary observation skills were absent, unless of course he felt that was all ok in which case a whole load of other questions need to be asked.
Given the current legal challenges, WR can not allow this to continue.
This comment doesn't make sense.
Neither does the whole situation! Which is why I am finding it so difficult to yet again observe that match official's actions are not focussed on player safety.
If you could steer me a little bit better to which element you find confusing I can explain further, but I'll try here anyway.
Single ref on a pitch on a Saturday what would you do?
How do you feel the TMO rationalised the events?
How do you feel he arrived at a decision not to bring the occurrence to the referee's attention for formal review? It was not a borderline case!
If the referee did not see it and the French TV were obviously not going to show it, yet it was there clear as day for the TMO to see why do you feel he did not assist and invite the referee to fulfil his role and work through the protocol as sole arbiter?
As a referee would you accept given the prima facie evidence that somebody appears to have discounted the occurrence as a non event without even consulting you?
Head contact is a significant player welfare and safety incident.
This was not a glancing blow.
Protocols are in place to sustain player welfare.
We didn't see the protocol being applied. Why?
We have a TMO working isolation in a head contact incident. That is not correct protocol.
Debriefs should not occur behind closed doors when significant safety issues are not being addressed.
Are World Rugby part of a legal case for early onset dementia or is it just my imagination?
Or we could just shy away.
Again:
this one is a still frame, watching it live the size difference of a number9 getting bounced onto his back by a rampaging 8 makes it a tough one to feel for. Sure the 8 goes down and the mouthguard data would tell if he was really injured from the clash or playing for a card.
The first one in this clip has a lot more force (atleast from the only angle shown) on the ball carrier. Either way, theses are normally minimum YC these days.
12K views · 34 reactions | "French Kissing" or a Clear Red? 🇫🇷🤔 Alfie Barbeary took three shots to the head yesterday, and the TMO didn't look at a single one. Bordeaux moves on to the final, but Bath fans (and a lot of pundits) are feeling robbed t
"French Kissing" or a Clear Red? 🇫🇷🤔 Alfie Barbeary took three shots to the head yesterday, and the TMO didn't look at a single one. Bordeaux moves on to the final, but Bath fans (and a lot of...
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seems like there's two issues here - a)TMO not reviewing incidents b)TMO not getting access to the footage
if b) is present, a) can happen
According to this article, b) was at play
Referees sick of unreliable replay systems — it’s time rugby grew up and fixed it
Three decades on from rugby turning professional and referees cannot always get the replays they need. How is this happening and what can be done to sort it?
www.thetimes.com
The Times however understands that Sunday’s refereeing team were frustrated that they did not have full access to the replay footage they needed to decide whether these tackles, from Adam Coleman, Maxime Lucu and Maxime Lamothe, on Barbeary were illegal and warranted cards. – Kelleher
The French TV guys are on the defensive, because for the zillionth time they're accused of influencing the game.
French TV bosses hit back at Van Graan
Investec Champions Cup television broadcasters in France have responded to criticism from Bath head coach Johann van Graan, saying it is "impossible to hide footage".
The final will be at a neutral venue.
Flish
Referees in England
Listening to Andy Goode on his podcast today (he was commentator), he stated that he could here Ben White (the TMO) on hid audio stream asking for the other angles, they weren't given, so TMO either can't intervene, or only has 1 angle to work with - the. To3 seem fairly well hamstrung to me :-(
didds
Resident Club Coach
that's my understanding too.
HYPOTHETICAL SCENARIO
In the first half Blue (home nation) player makes head contact with Red.
TV Producer (TVP) provides one useless angle
TMO calls for more angles.
TVP says none available
TMO has no C&O evidence, no action taken, Blue player stays on.
30 minutes after, in the second half, a Red player makes head contact with a Blue player in the same area of the pitch.
TMO asks for angles
TVP provides 5 different angles condemning Red to a YC and review which becomes a RC.
YC having being dealt with, TMO then points out to TVP that the same place in the 1st half had only one angle but now in the 2nd half there are 5. QED there must be another 4 angles available from the same cameras from the 1st half.
TVP begrudgingly provides those other 4 angles from the 1st half, which condemn the Blue player from that 1st half head contact6.
Can the Ref on advice from TMO _NOW_ YC and review that Blue player who has of course been carrying on for thirty minutes.
I really hasten to add this is purely hypothetical and I ask out of interest!
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We should be hearing about this by now, what has been done to answer the questions and address the allegations. Leaving it to fester without official response does the game a great disservice.
It would appear there is not shortage of screens in the TMO Station:
If that bottom left screen, currently with 8 feeds, has blank segments at any time then the camera feed might have failed but if they are ever-present then the feed was there and the recording, including the time stamps should be there:
So we get a situation, 3 occurrences of head contact that were not brought to the referee's attention for on field review. That needs to be investigated and publicly:
And one must ask then about their suitability to govern the game.
It would appear there is not shortage of screens in the TMO Station:
If that bottom left screen, currently with 8 feeds, has blank segments at any time then the camera feed might have failed but if they are ever-present then the feed was there and the recording, including the time stamps should be there:
So we get a situation, 3 occurrences of head contact that were not brought to the referee's attention for on field review. That needs to be investigated and publicly:
- Post match review of all available feeds and application of the head contact protocol to determine if the incidents were dealt with incorrectly at the time.
- Consideration by the authority of any reaction to JvG comments for bringing the game into disrepute.
- If the TMO asked but did not get angles that should have been there, then that should be formally reported and investigated.
- If the TMO did not ask for any angles because he considered the actions were not head contact then TMO judgment is in question given the evidence the public can see and the published head contact protocol and that should also be addressed.
And one must ask then about their suitability to govern the game.
Volun-selected
Referees in America
it would appear that The Powers That Be have heard the murmurings of discontent and are now constructing an elegant stable door.
www.theguardian.com
Disquiet indeed…
Champions Cup final will have independent TV director in charge
An independent director will be in charge of the Champions Cup final TV coverage after Bath were left unhappy some camera angles were unavailable to the TMO in their semi-final loss
www.theguardian.com
This is what happens in Super rugby and, I understand in world rugby competitions. (See post above for the setup)
Not happening in France and obvionusly some european comps, where the broadcaster still holds the reins
Volun-selected
Referees in America
I really don’t understand why it cannot be both. Ahead of time the host broadcaster confirms number of cameras and their angles and they just have a parallel direct feed of every camera and mic to a portable bunker or similar setup. The broadcaster still gets to cherry-pick the angles to feed the TV and stadium screen, TMO gets everything and then can override the stadium when they need to show the Ref a specific angle.
As @shep notes, storage is cheap so they can keep everything until the window for the disciplinary official to make any post match citations closes. If no RC or citations the footage is wiped.
Marc Wakeham
Referees in Wales
Of course, it can be both. But the host broadcaster / country has to WANT it to be both.
Wasn't this the case anyway? The final is in neutral Bilbao, so are the French jumping the border and handling the broadcast?it would appear that The Powers That Be have heard the murmurings of discontent and are now constructing an elegant stable door.
Disquiet indeed…
Champions Cup final will have independent TV director in charge
An independent director will be in charge of the Champions Cup final TV coverage after Bath were left unhappy some camera angles were unavailable to the TMO in their semi-final loss
Marc Wakeham
Referees in Wales
A few French European games have been played over the border in the past few years. It is effectively a game on French soil.