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USA Rugby In-goal Matrix

M

Marc Wakeham


Referees in Wales
I'vebeen looking at the Matix ad I am a little confused. We have the Heading "Who makes ball dead, and how" Underneath we have the options:
  1. Attackers
  2. Defenders
  3. Neither

Now my questions are: If neither atacker nor defender make the ball dead, Who did? And if the ball was not made dead why is there a sanction?In-goal matrix.jpg
 
I think it’s just a case of not ideal wording and “neither” just means when the ball is not actively made dead by the action of a specific player in-goal - so ball held up by 2 or more players or a kick/knock from field of play.

Still, it’s a damn handy list to have.
 
So we have:

Who makes ball dead, and how
Neither
Ball continues TIG or over DBL
AttackersCarry---
DefendersCarry---

Some one must have made the ball dead here yest there is no sanction. Yes we can work it out but it is poor that USA released this with flaws and even worse tha WR says yes this is the document to follow without correcting the flaws. If there is a kick or a knock on from the filed of play there is a specific player who did it! and it is covered elsewhwere in the document.

So unprofessional!
 
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The two sub scenarios are
Held up (no one made the ball dead, the ref did, by blowing whistle)
Ball bounces dead on its own
 
crossref said:
The two sub scenarios are
Held up (no one made the ball dead, the ref did, by blowing whistle)
Ball bounces dead on its own
Click to expand...
Ref Signals to say that the ball is dead but it is the players who make it so.

How did the ball move on its own? Someone propelled it. Or did it just say to itself I'll go for a stroll? Come on you need to do better than that!
 
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Marc Wakeham said:
Ref Signals to say that the ball is dead but it is the players who make it so.

How did the ball move on its own? Someone propelled it. Or did it just say to itself I'll go for a stroll? Come on you need to do better than that!
Click to expand...
I think it's just to make the table as simple and usable as possible, given the terribly complicating and confusing law book

It makes good sense to me
 
Marc Wakeham said:
Ref Signals to say that the ball is dead but it is the players who make it so.

How did the ball move on its own? Someone propelled it. Or did it just say to itself I'll go for a stroll? Come on you need to do better than that!
Click to expand...

crossref said:
I think it's just to make the table as simple and usable as possible, given the terribly complicating and confusing law book

It makes good sense to me
Click to expand...
How does it make it simpler if introduces a player kicking the ball into in-goal and it going dead with neither side making it so? Somebody had to be them last to play it. A ball cannot "bounce dead on its own".

How does a restart from (let's say half way go into TIG with neither side being responsible for it getting there.? I guess in a country with Trump and Musk anything made up is possible. But the rest of the world stil wants a bit of reality.
 
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Should Neither read either? That would make a little more sense. But it does not explain the two Blank sanctions.

What do you give in the following scenarios:
  1. The Defenders take the ball in to in-goal and either (or neither) side make it dead by putting it into TIG or over the DBL?
  2. The Attackers take the ball in to in-goal and either (or neither) side make it dead by putting it into TIG or over the DBL?
The guide is silent on both.
 
Marc Wakeham said:
Should Neither read either? That would make a little more sense. But it does not explain the two Blank sanctions.

What do you give in the following scenarios:
  1. The Defenders take the ball in to in-goal and either (or neither) side make it dead by putting it into TIG or over the DBL?
  2. The Attackers take the ball in to in-goal and either (or neither) side make it dead by putting it into TIG or over the DBL?
The guide is silent on both.
Click to expand...
1 is row 6 or 7 / cols 1 and 3 . (Scrum 5 in all cases)
2 is rows 1 to 5 / cols 1 and 3. (It depends)
 
If that is the case why does the guide not say so?


I would agree with 1: Defenders toook it back so Attacking scrum 5.
In the Case of 2 the attackers put it into in-goal but "neither" took it into in-goal. What does it "depend" upon? Which team"neither" was playing for?

Surely if either team takes the ball into in goal and it is held p we blow quickly (not allowning a prolonge wrestle for the ball" I'd go for the player last definately in possession is the guy making it dead. You can't have "Neither". It is just a mess.

Do you want to explain how you reckon that: "..Ball bounces dead on its own" I can't wait for you to explain that one'

We have always worked on "Who put it into in-goal?" So surely the sanctions should be simple. If the attackers put it into in-goal the it is either a GLDO/ DO22 or there are options (from kicks). If the Defenders put the ball into in-go then its a Scrum 5 attacking ball.

Just remove the "neither" columns.
 
I think you should send your suggestions to US rugby!

The mess is made by the incredibly complicated Laws .. as the table shows . So many permutations
 
Their problem not mine. I just think it shows that WR and all its family really need to check the stuff they issue as"facts"

I'll leave the question for you:

Do you want to explain how you reckon that: "..Ball bounces dead on its own" I can't wait for you to explain that one'
 
Marc Wakeham said:
Should Neither read either? That would make a little more sense. But it does not explain the two Blank sanctions.

What do you give in the following scenarios:
  1. The Defenders take the ball in to in-goal and either (or neither) side make it dead by putting it into TIG or over the DBL?
  2. The Attackers take the ball in to in-goal and either (or neither) side make it dead by putting it into TIG or over the DBL?
The guide is silent on both.
Click to expand...

It seems quite simple to me? The blanks in column 5 are simply not applicable/impossible.

Column 5 is only about the ball being projected into the in-goal by a touch (kick or knock) in the field of play. Look at the headings for columns 1 and 3, they answer your two questions.

Carrying the ball into TIG/DBL from the in-goal is already covered in columns 1 and 3, and there's no way to carry the ball into TIG from outside in-goal, as by definition TIG is... in-goal. And there's no way to carry the ball out with neither team being responsible for it, as it requires a ball carrier.
 
Marc Wakeham said:
Do you want to explain how you reckon that: "..Ball bounces dead on its own" I can't wait for you to explain that one'
Click to expand...
The permutations turn on

1 WHO put the ball into the in goal, and HOW did they do it (carry, kick, knock on etc)

2 once the ball was in the in goal WHO made it dead and HOW did they do it

If (1) the ball is kicked, or charged down into the in goal then it is a loose ball that (2) could carry on with no one touching it again, and become dead

However if the ball is (1) carried into the in goal, then someone is holding it, it's not a loose ball, so it won't cross the DBL on its own, hence the blank cell

Held up means that neither team made it dead. In this situation one team is trying to make it dead, but the other team successfully stop them from doing so. After a short period of time ref blows

I don't think its all hard to follow ?
 
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It's good seeing the table again
Last week I had an attacking charge down from the field of play into the in goal, that the defenders kicked over the DBL .
After a moments thought I gave a GLDO. But afterwards I wondered if I had got that wrong

But now checking the table I can see that i got it right 👍
 
Rich_NL said:
It seems quite simple to me? The blanks in column 5 are simply not applicable/impossible.

Column 5 is only about the ball being projected into the in-goal by a touch (kick or knock) in the field of play. Look at the headings for columns 1 and 3, they answer your two questions.

Carrying the ball into TIG/DBL from the in-goal is already covered in columns 1 and 3, and there's no way to carry the ball into TIG from outside in-goal, as by definition TIG is... in-goal. And there's no way to carry the ball out with neither team being responsible for it, as it requires a ball carrier.
Click to expand...
Rich_NL said:
It seems quite simple to me? The blanks in column 5 are simply not applicable/impossible.

Column 5 is only about the ball being projected into the in-goal by a touch (kick or knock) in the field of play. Look at the headings for columns 1 and 3, they answer your two questions.

Carrying the ball into TIG/DBL from the in-goal is already covered in columns 1 and 3, and there's no way to carry the ball into TIG from outside in-goal, as by definition TIG is... in-goal. And there's no way to carry the ball out with neither team being responsible for it, as it requires a ball carrier.
Click to expand...
So you accept the ball get get into in goal , for example from a PK and be made dead b but by NEITHER SIDE? If NEITHER side made it dead how did it become dead? The Neither columns make no sense!
 
Neither in that table means that no one * in the in goal* did any action that made the ball dead

I think you are over thinking this !
 
crossref said:
The permutations turn on

1 WHO put the ball into the in goal, and HOW did they do it (carry, kick, knock on etc)

2 once the ball was in the in goal WHO made it dead and HOW did they do it

If (1) the ball is kicked, or charged down into the in goal then it is a loose ball that (2) could carry on with no one touching it again, and become dead

However if the ball is (1) carried into the in goal, then someone is holding it, it's not a loose ball, so it won't cross the DBL on its own, hence the blank cell

Held up means that neither team made it dead. In this situation one team is trying to make it dead, but the other team successfully stop them from doing so. After a short period of time ref blows

I don't think its all hard to follow ?
Click to expand...
The Ball is made dead by the ball carrying side (Not by the scoring) but by them failing to score and the ball becoming unplayable. Alternatively the Defeding side fails t o"minor the ball and it becomes unplayable. . So the defenders have mde the ball dead.

Just as in the field of play, if the side taking it in to a maul fail to use it the ball is dead. By their failure. It's not difficult. The neither colums do not need to be there. In the event of a charge down the person charging it down made it dead. The ball did not do it on its own.
 
crossref said:
Neither in that table means that no one * in the in goal* did any action that made the ball dead

I think you are over thinking this !
Click to expand...
It's quite clear the chart says "who makes the ball dead, and how" not "who makes the ball dead, and how, in the in goal" . You are mking things up now. Clearly you do not know. ll you had to say really.
 
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