Teams not contesting at a breakdown

[Billy2405]

Hi all, apologies if this has been aired already! Had this twice today, player with ball tackled and both go to ground., tackler gets to his feet as attacking team form a ruck style formation over their player with the ball, no released. Defending team are not in contact and tackler has moved away so no ruck is formed.
So what is there to prevent the defending side going for the ball and where is the offside line? And would there be any difference with younger teams?
Second question….! Similar situation but at the lineout. Ball is caught by attacking team and team mates bind around the catcher, let’s assume the catcher is in front, ie teammates are not in front of him not obstructing and defending team do not contest. Where is the offside line when a) the ball is caught and B) when this group have moved forwards still unopposed? Finally c) differences for <u16 and younger.
Apologies for the somewhat complex question but every week I referee a different age range every week and have to remind myself of the variations from U13 through to adult!

 

[didds]

Suggest you find clips of Eng v Italy 6N several years ago where the Italians did this and showed how top flight pro players (Captain) Hartley and (pack leader?) Haskell didnt know the fundamental laws of their profession.

this one is a decent starting point for that

 

[chbg]

1. Law 14.10: "Offside lines are created at a tackle when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball, which is on the ground. Each team’s offside line runs parallel to the goal line through the hindmost point of any player in the tackle or on their feet over the ball. If that point is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line." (This post-dates Didds' video example above.)

If attackers did not form the 'ruck style' then there are no offside lines. (Same if ball carrier is not actually tackled ("held and brought to ground").)

What's to prevent defenders going for the ball in accordance with the tackle (Law 14) or ruck Laws (Law 15)? Their own tactics apparently.

In RFU-land, normal ruck Law applies U13 upwards. Below that, only 3 players from each side, including ball carrier and tackler, at U11 and only two at U10.

2. Line-out: in simple terms, the off-side line for line-out players is the line of touch until the ball is thrown in, and after that the ball (Laws 18.30 - 36, but particularly 18.32). The line-out is over once the ball leaves the line of touch, and therefore your scenario becomes open play. No maul, no off-side lines; once a maul is formed (one defending player) then maul off-side lines apply. At RFU U14 & U15 the lineouts are uncontested. The contest can begin once the line-out is over (clarified as such this season): ball or ball carrier leaves the line-out, ball over 15m, or when own team bind on ball carrier (your scenario I believe) - in my terms, "offering the opposition to form a maul".

See www.rugbyreferee.net for a table that shows the variations in RFU U10 - U18.

 

[Billy2405]

Suggest you find clips of Eng v Italy 6N several years ago where the Italians did this and showed how top flight pro players (Captain) Hartley and (pack leader?) Haskell didnt know the fundamental laws of their profession.

this one is a decent starting point for that

Thank you for the clip! It would appear tho although t the ref was saying open play the Italians didn’t go for the ball but ran behind the non-ruck to disrupt England. What cat they go for the ball?

 

[Rich_NL]

To clear up confusion: they changed the laws after that game to stop it happening.

If there is a ruck, or a tackle with an attacking player over the ball, they can't come round.

If there's a tackle with no players over the ball, they still have to come through the gate to play the ball.

Otherwise, they can only play the ball if it leaves the ruck or the ruck is over.

 

[didds]

Thanks for the clarification Rich

Even back in that game, there was something like 1m circle around the tackle they couldnt enter hence them not playing the ball, but merely disrupting its subsequent playing - though its interesting in particular that often only the Italian 8 (Parise?) was doing that plan.

 

[Billy2405]

To clear up confusion: they changed the laws after that game to stop it happening.

If there is a ruck, or a tackle with an attacking player over the ball, they can't come round.

If there's a tackle with no players over the ball, they still have to come through the gate to play the ball.

Otherwise, they can only play the ball if it leaves the ruck or the ruck is over.

That makes sense!

 

[Bobbylo]

To clear up confusion: they changed the laws after that game to stop it happening.

If there is a ruck, or a tackle with an attacking player over the ball, they can't come round.

If there's a tackle with no players over the ball, they still have to come through the gate to play the ball.

Otherwise, they can only play the ball if it leaves the ruck or the ruck is over.

":If there's a tackle with no players over the ball, they still have to come through the gate to play the ball."

Can you please share the link to the law or copy and paste here? I can't believe that after every tackle where no-one is over the ball, there is a gate to which players have to come through before picking up the ball. if the tackled player releases the ball as he should regardless anyone can pick it up as its in open play, no? I suppose if he holds on to it and laying it up for his teammates , who then don't turn up the defending player would be force to walk over the tackled player and possible the tackler in order to pick up the ball.

 

[Rich_NL]

":If there's a tackle with no players over the ball, they still have to come through the gate to play the ball."

Can you please share the link to the law or copy and paste here? I can't believe that after every tackle where no-one is over the ball, there is a gate to which players have to come through before picking up the ball. if the tackled player releases the ball as he should regardless anyone can pick it up as its in open play, no? I suppose if he holds on to it and laying it up for his teammates , who then don't turn up the defending player would be force to walk over the tackled player and possible the tackler in order to pick up the ball.

14.8.c (and 14.6 for the tackler)

14.8.c has pretty much always been the case. 14.6 changed about 10 years ago.

 

[Dickie E]

":If there's a tackle with no players over the ball, they still have to come through the gate to play the ball."

Can you please share the link to the law or copy and paste here?

Law 14.8.c noting that if no offside lines are formed and if the ball leaves the tackle area, players can come from any direction

 

[Dickie E]

To clear up confusion: they changed the laws after that game to stop it happening.

If there is a ruck, or a tackle with an attacking player over the ball, they can't come round.

Can be any player, not just an attacking player 14.10