• Please bear with us. We have moved to a new provider, and some images and icons are not working correctly. We are working hard to fix this

Rucking Out of Control?

BikingBud


Referees in England
Has the current trend of allowing players off feet at rucks lead to the serious injury of another player?

The Ireland v France match yesterday, Irish player hitting the ruck from the side and going off feet caused serious injury to the French 9.

According to the Ruck Laws:

Forming a ruck​

15.2 A ruck is formed when at least one player from each team are in contact, on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground.

15.3 Players involved in all stages of the ruck must have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips. Sanction: Free-kick.

Joining a ruck​

15.5 An arriving player must be on their feet and join from behind their offside line. Sanction: Penalty.

During a ruck​

15.16 Players must not:

b. Intentionally collapse a ruck or jump on top of it. Sanction: Penalty.
Screenshot 2025-03-09 at 12.10.21.png
Remove jackling, it has no basis in the Laws and get back to rucking.

Also:
9.20 Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.

a. A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul. Sanction: Penalty.
b. A player must not make contact with an opponent above the line of the shoulders. Sanction: Penalty.
c. A player must not intentionally collapse a ruck or a maul. Sanction: Penalty.
d. A player may remove the stealer/jackler from the tackle area by pushing/driving them backwards (including by grabbing the knee/leg), but must not roll, pull or twist an opponent. Sanction: Penalty.
e. A player must not drop their weight onto an opponent or target the lower limbs. Sanction: Penalty.
I am sure there will be much discussion about it was accidental, he couldn't help it, it was not intentional. But in other areas of the game we do not accept those as mitigations.

We have instituted protection to prevent croc rolls but that wasn't really necessary if the basic Laws for Rucks were applied. You cannot croc roll someone who is stood up.

You do not get this type of injury is 9.20 is applied!
 
Last edited:
I haven’t reviewed that clear out since watching it during the match yesterday and the replay has only just gone up. Given the status of the player injured I expect we’re going to see a full frame by frame analysis over the next few days.

To your wider point, it does feel like a lot of flopping is overlooked in the elite games, and a lot of entries seem to be a little wide of the gate - but I’m looking at a smaller screen and a wider angle so have assumed that the refs being closer have the best view.

I just read the citation commissioner has declined to investigate so it looks like this will be decided in the court of public opinion.
 
flopping has been ignore for ever in the elite game it seems - at leasta decade. Along with sealing off. Its a fwcking joke frankly, and just makes life hard for you guys in more grass roots levels where some players and some coaches think that can operate in the same manner
 
I haven’t reviewed that clear out since watching it during the match yesterday and the replay has only just gone up. Given the status of the player injured I expect we’re going to see a full frame by frame analysis over the next few days.

To your wider point, it does feel like a lot of flopping is overlooked in the elite games, and a lot of entries seem to be a little wide of the gate - but I’m looking at a smaller screen and a wider angle so have assumed that the refs being closer have the best view.

I just read the citation commissioner has declined to investigate so it looks like this will be decided in the court of public opinion.


PLAYER SAFETY?

NOTHING TO SEE HERE


MOVE ALONG NOW PLEASE
 
EvI - 3rd minute.

Italian player in at the side whilst tracking back, to england ruck.

no punishment.
 

France captain Dupont has cruciate knee injury!​


The status of the player is not the important thing here but a cruciate knee injury.

Ref the ruck!
 
As my daughter might say....'whatever'!
Whatever?

To indicate your level of concern about the incident?
To the fact that a player has suffered an injury that might jeopardise their career?
To the fact that rucks are not being controlled according to the Laws?
To the fact that people feel lack of intent makes it acceptable, when for a head contact or injury that resulted from Foul Play, off feet at ruck, then a minimum Yellow Card and off-field review would have occurred?
To the fact that the citing commissioner appears not to be reviewing the incident?

I am again astounded that we can spend much effort and time discussing minutiae, exploring the depths of Watership Down, yet try and address the very public injury in a very high profile game to a very high profile player and the fact that it stems from failure to apply well written, clearly understandable Laws and it's like waiting for the tumble weed to blow through.

How can we even start to profess the game is safe when we do not apply those Laws?
How can we assure Johnny and Jessie's mum that the game is safe? After all this is the Court of public opinion!
How can we grow the game if Johnny and Jessie go on to play draughts as it is the only thing they think is safe?

We enforce tackling in the air, we enforce tip tackles, we enforce taking players out in the line out, we enforce high tackles. All of which might be considered unintentional, clumsy, mistimed, an outcome of the dynamics, second player joining in. But we apply the Law!

Why don't we enforce rucking Laws?

Mr Brace did ping a couple yesterday later in the game but it needs to be more consistent and fully supported.

Not wanting to live in the past but this piece from 1994 was perhaps the start of the shambles:

Clive Norling, one of the greatest of our referees, proffered a similar view: 'The secret of good refereeing is knowing when not to blow the whistle. You can in fact referee without a whistle.' Norling believes that the laws themselves are more at fault than the referees and that they should not be made by committee men but should be decided by a panel of active players, active coaches and active referees. He is especially caustic of the recent stewardship of the International Rugby Board's laws committee by Dr Roger Vanderfield of Australia, who he says has not blown a whistle for more than 20 years.

In common with other referees, Norling believes that laws are sometimes changed unnecessarily on the whim of individual countries. For instance, you could once opt to take a scrum instead of a line-out on your own throw, and the repeal of that law was at the instigation of the Scottish. Norling believes that its return would counter the modern rush for the seven-foot giant.
Fred Howard, the formidable English official who has recently been appointed as the national referees coach by the Rugby Union, disagreed that it is the laws which are at fault. He pointed out that during the World Cup there was total consistency between the northern and southern hemisphere referees concerning staying on feet in the ruck.

Now, however, things have got worse, according to Howard, because there is insufficient communication and referees revert to the style required by their respective home union. Rowlands confirmed this, saying that he had never seen a ruck as defined in the law book, which says that a player joining a ruck must have his head and shoulders no lower than his hip. He must bind with at least one arm around the body of a player of his team in the ruck.

Howard conceded that one of the biggest problems in the game is the ruck, and pointed out that there is only one genuine ruck: with everybody on their feet. However, the best way of securing the ball in the modern game is to go to ground and the players have rumbled this. Once people are not upright, there is no ruck, and this is not properly covered by law. Penalties at rucks, which depend on the interpretation of individual referees, have become far too prevalent.
 
No disagreement here - rucks are a complete mess and pretty much all of them have illegal actions, often multiple ones. Eggchasers on youtube has a good video on this in light of the Dupont incident.

I am not a referee (former player and interested observer) but it seems the ruck laws are a bit of a mess. First, a ruck is formed when two players are in contact, on their feet, over the ball. So there was no ruck here UNTIL Beirne made contact with Dupont, correct? So is he entitled to push/drive Dupont (who is jackalling) out of the ruck, or is he guilty of charging into the ruck, even though the ruck didn't exist until he got there? (Sheehan was not on his feet.) Also it seems to me that French 5 comes into the ruck from the side, and Dupont has his head below his hips, as many jackallers do - watch Alldritt in a later ruck in the Eggchasers video. As for not staying on your feet, well just watch the Eggchasers video and observe that that is the norm, not the exception.

Finally (and I am Irish) how on earth was O'Mahony being tackled off the ball not a penalty? Even the French player put his hands in the air in the classic "I didn't mean that" gesture, and France conveniently ran through the gap thus created to score. What's the legal basis for the referee's comment about him being a "matador"?
 
No disagreement here - rucks are a complete mess and pretty much all of them have illegal actions, often multiple ones. Eggchasers on youtube has a good video on this in light of the Dupont incident.

I am not a referee (former player and interested observer) but it seems the ruck laws are a bit of a mess. First, a ruck is formed when two players are in contact, on their feet, over the ball. So there was no ruck here UNTIL Beirne made contact with Dupont, correct? So is he entitled to push/drive Dupont (who is jackalling) out of the ruck, or is he guilty of charging into the ruck, even though the ruck didn't exist until he got there? (Sheehan was not on his feet.) Also it seems to me that French 5 comes into the ruck from the side, and Dupont has his head below his hips, as many jackallers do - watch Alldritt in a later ruck in the Eggchasers video. As for not staying on your feet, well just watch the Eggchasers video and observe that that is the norm, not the exception.

Finally (and I am Irish) how on earth was O'Mahony being tackled off the ball not a penalty? Even the French player put his hands in the air in the classic "I didn't mean that" gesture, and France conveniently ran through the gap thus created to score. What's the legal basis for the referee's comment about him being a "matador"?

The ruck is formed by Beirne making contact. He correctly comes through the gate (as it's a tackle until he makes contact), and then he has to bind on to Dupont (law 15.7), and endeavour to stay on his feet (15.12), neither of which he does. But at this level, these laws are all but ignored unless there's a shoulder charge to the head or the ball is smothered on quick ball. It would be a real gotcha to suddenly penalise this ruck just because someone got injured, when both sides have been doing it all game.

Regarding POM being taken "off the ball", as a neutral I thought this was a good call from the ref. POM was a tackle assist, he had his hands on the ball carrier and took his shoulders down. At this point, the French lock (Flament?) has committed to the clearout - if he doesn't, a player like O'Mahoney can drop over the ball and steal it. They make contact over the tackle, so it's a ruck.

At this point, it's not down to laws but to judgement and guidelines. What often happens is that the defender pulls out and tries to milk a penalty because the committed attacking support then falls over the ruck or clears them far backwards, and in rugby you don't want to reward passive play or milking penalties, so you don't reward the 'matador' who pulls away from the charging bull. Because Green 7 isn't contesting and Blue 4 is, POM goes backwards and down (he actually sits/lies, you see him fold his leg under). Blue 4 can't blink out of existence, but he clearly isn't hanging on to him, or otherwise obstructing him while he tries to contest (hands go up) - if he had, then it could be a penalty to green. But effectively the call is Green 7 has taken himself out of the contest and Blue 4 has done everything he can not to obstruct further, so play on.

(I found the following link for a reference film)
 
No disagreement here - rucks are a complete mess and pretty much all of them have illegal actions, often multiple ones. Eggchasers on youtube has a good video on this in light of the Dupont incident.

I am not a referee (former player and interested observer) but it seems the ruck laws are a bit of a mess. First, a ruck is formed when two players are in contact, on their feet, over the ball. So there was no ruck here UNTIL Beirne made contact with Dupont, correct? So is he entitled to push/drive Dupont (who is jackalling) out of the ruck, or is he guilty of charging into the ruck, even though the ruck didn't exist until he got there? (Sheehan was not on his feet.) Also it seems to me that French 5 comes into the ruck from the side, and Dupont has his head below his hips, as many jackallers do - watch Alldritt in a later ruck in the Eggchasers video. As for not staying on your feet, well just watch the Eggchasers video and observe that that is the norm, not the exception.

Finally (and I am Irish) how on earth was O'Mahony being tackled off the ball not a penalty? Even the French player put his hands in the air in the classic "I didn't mean that" gesture, and France conveniently ran through the gap thus created to score. What's the legal basis for the referee's comment about him being a "matador"?
AG's interpretation was that has POM stood still, the French player would have been legal. POM backed away as the French player was committing - in his view, the illegality was caused by POM acting in a legal manner.
 
Thanks to SimonSmith and Rich ... but I am still not convinced re the POM incident. If it looks like I am going to catch the ball, but then don't, the opposition still can't tackle me, so I don't see how an illegality being caused by an opposition player acting in a legal manner gets anyone off the hook. Plus the contact was NOT over the tackle. POM was at least a yard back from the tackle when Flament hits him ... so he had gone well past the ball, which in itself is illegal, is it not? And POM DIDN'T sit/lie down, he was knocked down. Former Irish ref Owen Doyle disagreed with that, and a lot of AG's other decisions (most of the time arguing that he should have penalised Irish players, so not being one-eyed) in his Irish Times column on Tuesday (may be paywalled, sorry). Mind you I suppose he reffed before the concept of the bull and the matador had made its way into rugby. He also took exception to Gardner's comment of "great roll away, number 10". I guess you didn't get running commentaries in his day either.
 
......comment of "great roll away, number 10". I guess you didn't get running commentaries in his day either.
Not really a 'running commentary' as I see it. Surely a comment like that can help communicate the type of behaviour/action that the referee is looking for similar to the way a comment such as"You need to be out of there quicker " etc.
 
Not really a 'running commentary' as I see it. Surely a comment like that can help communicate the type of behaviour/action that the referee is looking for similar to the way a comment such as"You need to be out of there quicker " etc.
I agree that Owen is being a fuddy-duddy. If we're going to use our voices to discourage negative actions, we should also use them to reinforce positive ones and ideally improve play later in the game.
 
Thanks to SimonSmith and Rich ... but I am still not convinced re the POM incident. If it looks like I am going to catch the ball, but then don't, the opposition still can't tackle me, so I don't see how an illegality being caused by an opposition player acting in a legal manner gets anyone off the hook. Plus the contact was NOT over the tackle. POM was at least a yard back from the tackle when Flament hits him ... so he had gone well past the ball, which in itself is illegal, is it not? And POM DIDN'T sit/lie down, he was knocked down. Former Irish ref Owen Doyle disagreed with that, and a lot of AG's other decisions (most of the time arguing that he should have penalised Irish players, so not being one-eyed) in his Irish Times column on Tuesday (may be paywalled, sorry). Mind you I suppose he reffed before the concept of the bull and the matador had made its way into rugby. He also took exception to Gardner's comment of "great roll away, number 10". I guess you didn't get running commentaries in his day either.
[My bold] The high tackle guidelines in Australia very explicitly do. if the tackler would otherwise have been legal except for the actions of the ball carrier, play on.
 
If it looks like I am going to catch the ball, but then don't, the opposition still can't tackle me, so I don't see how an illegality being caused by an opposition player acting in a legal manner gets anyone off the hook.

There are many examples:
The opposition can tackle you if you're attempting to bring the ball under your control, so if you pull your hands away at the last second before catching it, the tackle is good. If you tackle a decoy runner you don't get penalised (subject to timing, etc).
If you catch the ball at a lineout and pass it back when the opposition (legally) refuse to engage, you're given a chance to play it away and then a scrum rather than a penalty - specifically because WR don't want to reward non-contesting players.
If you join a ruck legally and prevent a tackler who's actively trying to roll away from doing so by pinning him in with your legs, you don't get the penalty. You also don't get penalised.

And POM DIDN'T sit/lie down, he was knocked down

Watch the film again, specifically POM's left leg.
 
@Rich_NL Are you sure about tackling decoy runners? World Rugby's homepage states that "only the ball-carrier can be tackled" and the tackle laws suggest the same thing. The definition of "tackle" is "the method of holding a ball-carrier and bringing that player to ground". As I said I am not a ref, so I do not hold out any expertise on this stuff, but that's certainly the way I understand it. Also your example of the Australian high tackle guidelines is presumably (?) based on the ball-carrier slipping or ducking, etc, so that's not at all analagous. What that is saying is that it is not in fact a high tackle if that happens, and that you have not therefore committed an illegal action, not that you won't be penalised if you thought that was going to happen and act accordingly, if you get my drift. If POM had got involved in the ruck, then we all agree Flament could certainly have driven him backwards, but he didn't, so I don't think it's reasonable for Flament's defence to be that he thought he might have done so.

And on POM ... I've watched the video again and I still don't think he sat down. And if he did, then he should never be picked again by Ireland (: because to do so ten yards from your own line without even looking for a penalty as a result (which he didn't) would be criminally negligent defending ... and completely out of character for him to boot.
 
There are many examples:
The opposition can tackle you if you're attempting to bring the ball under your control, so if you pull your hands away at the last second before catching it, the tackle is good. If you tackle a decoy runner you don't get penalised (subject to timing, etc).
If you catch the ball at a lineout and pass it back when the opposition (legally) refuse to engage, you're given a chance to play it away and then a scrum rather than a penalty - specifically because WR don't want to reward non-contesting players.
If you join a ruck legally and prevent a tackler who's actively trying to roll away from doing so by pinning him in with your legs, you don't get the penalty. You also don't get penalised.



Watch the film again, specifically POM's left leg.
Was it 3 or 4 times NZ tackled supporting runners in the autumn?
 
@Rich_NL Are you sure about tackling decoy runners? World Rugby's homepage states that "only the ball-carrier can be tackled" and the tackle laws suggest the same thing. The definition of "tackle" is "the method of holding a ball-carrier and bringing that player to ground". As I said I am not a ref, so I do not hold out any expertise on this stuff, but that's certainly the way I understand it. Also your example of the Australian high tackle guidelines is presumably (?) based on the ball-carrier slipping or ducking, etc, so that's not at all analagous. What that is saying is that it is not in fact a high tackle if that happens, and that you have not therefore committed an illegal action, not that you won't be penalised if you thought that was going to happen and act accordingly, if you get my drift. If POM had got involved in the ruck, then we all agree Flament could certainly have driven him backwards, but he didn't, so I don't think it's reasonable for Flament's defence to be that he thought he might have done so.

And on POM ... I've watched the video again and I still don't think he sat down. And if he did, then he should never be picked again by Ireland (: because to do so ten yards from your own line without even looking for a penalty as a result (which he didn't) would be criminally negligent defending ... and completely out of character for him to boot.
I mean if you can get a defender to bite in on you as a decoy runner, and they hold and bring you to the ground, then you've done a good job and opened up a hole for the attack. Look here about 12 and then 24 seconds in for the "tackle" on black 13:
Technically it's illegal to tackle someone without the ball, but you're off the hook because it's reasonable to have to assume the possibility that you get the ball. (The video also shows several examples of when it *is* penalised as well, but it's not directly relevant to the IRE-FRA game)

Point being, there are lots of by-the-letter offences that aren't considered offences in the context of the game and the actions of the players. That this one has a term, 'matador', is a sign that it's a common enough situation :)
 
Back
Top