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Player upside down

M

Mipper


Referees in England
There was a game in Europe at the weekend, Munster vs Stade Francais where Luke Pierce issued Red Cards to both of the Stade Francais locks.

The second of these was for the Lock lifting the Munster scrum half, who had the ball upside down in the air, and then bringing him down to the ground, landing on his side. It did look for a moment, as the lock stood up, holding the 9 completely upside down as if he was going to drop him head first into the ground. But he didn't.

To me, I would have issued a Red Card in one of my game. I expected a Yellow Card for this as, from experience of watching top class rugby we see so often the discussion around whether the tackled player lands on his head or not. Sometimes we see countless replays going into forensic detail around the landing.

I am afraid that I am not technology guy, so I cannot share the video, but for those that may have seen it, or those that may have understood my explanation, I wonder as to your views?
 
This the one?

At a quick look I can see how LP could see it as a deliberate action (it looked deliberate to me) that puts a player at risk even if this time he was brought down “safely”. If the lock had been engaged by someone forming a ruck it could have ended very badly.

I can’t see the full match so I don’t know if there had been previous words or actions.
 
It looked like he was going to pile drive him but didn't and he didn't land on his head but classed as dangerous so got 2 matches!
 
I have said to coaches after giving cards for offences like this (i.e. lifted past horizontal and a player in a really unsafe position) that if it scares me in real time out on the field, I'll sanction it - as it's really only luck that stops some of them turning into major injuries. So I'm glad they gave a 2 match suspension, really sets a message that it's not only the outcome that determines the sanction, but the inherent safety of the player.
 
That was a strange game for LP.

Im a fan, I like his communication style and the way that he gets buy in from players. Overall I think hes a good ref.

In that game we had a YC given to Munster, Munster player always upright and drives up into the tackle and makes head contact. LP gives mitigation as ball carrier is going to ground, he wasnt he dipped as all BC do when going into contact.

1st RC French player throws a swing arm/Tackle into Peter O Mahoney, POM is actually falling to the floor when contact is made - no mitigation given for player going down as in the first instance.

2nd RC player is taken above the horizonal and brought down to ground on his side, it looks so much worse because of the size disparity between the two players. normally that would be a YC and isnt reviewed at all by LP.

Dont get me wrong they are easy RCs to sell but its hard to see mitigation given to one team for a player dropping and not to another, and not to go through the full review for the 2nd Rc was strange.
 
Shelflife said:
That was a strange game for LP.

Im a fan, I like his communication style and the way that he gets buy in from players. Overall I think hes a good ref.

In that game we had a YC given to Munster, Munster player always upright and drives up into the tackle and makes head contact. LP gives mitigation as ball carrier is going to ground, he wasnt he dipped as all BC do when going into contact.

1st RC French player throws a swing arm/Tackle into Peter O Mahoney, POM is actually falling to the floor when contact is made - no mitigation given for player going down as in the first instance.

2nd RC player is taken above the horizonal and brought down to ground on his side, it looks so much worse because of the size disparity between the two players. normally that would be a YC and isnt reviewed at all by LP.

Dont get me wrong they are easy RCs to sell but its hard to see mitigation given to one team for a player dropping and not to another, and not to go through the full review for the 2nd Rc was strange.
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You're right in how you describe these, however I think that for the first RC it was considered a swinging arm, so deliberate foul play, hence no mitigation considered. I may be wrong here, but that is my understanding.
 
Mipper said:
You're right in how you describe these, however I think that for the first RC it was considered a swinging arm, so deliberate foul play, hence no mitigation considered. I may be wrong here, but that is my understanding.
Click to expand...
Youre right Mipper but if POM had stayed upright it would have been across his chest as opposed to his chops.
 
Mipper said:
There was a game in Europe at the weekend, Munster vs Stade Francais where Luke Pierce issued Red Cards to both of the Stade Francais locks.

The second of these was for the Lock lifting the Munster scrum half, who had the ball upside down in the air, and then bringing him down to the ground, landing on his side. It did look for a moment, as the lock stood up, holding the 9 completely upside down as if he was going to drop him head first into the ground. But he didn't.

To me, I would have issued a Red Card in one of my game. I expected a Yellow Card for this as, from experience of watching top class rugby we see so often the discussion around whether the tackled player lands on his head or not. Sometimes we see countless replays going into forensic detail around the landing.

I am afraid that I am not technology guy, so I cannot share the video, but for those that may have seen it, or those that may have understood my explanation, I wonder as to your views?
Click to expand...
Mike send my link and ill upload for you
 
Shelflife said:
That was a strange game for LP.

Im a fan, I like his communication style and the way that he gets buy in from players. Overall I think hes a good ref.

In that game we had a YC given to Munster, Munster player always upright and drives up into the tackle and makes head contact. LP gives mitigation as ball carrier is going to ground, he wasnt he dipped as all BC do when going into contact.

1st RC French player throws a swing arm/Tackle into Peter O Mahoney, POM is actually falling to the floor when contact is made - no mitigation given for player going down as in the first instance.

2nd RC player is taken above the horizonal and brought down to ground on his side, it looks so much worse because of the size disparity between the two players. normally that would be a YC and isnt reviewed at all by LP.

Dont get me wrong they are easy RCs to sell but its hard to see mitigation given to one team for a player dropping and not to another, and not to go through the full review for the 2nd Rc was strange.
Click to expand...

In that game we had a YC given to Munster, Munster player always upright and drives up into the tackle and makes head contact. LP gives mitigation as ball carrier is going to ground, he wasnt he dipped as all BC do when going into contact.

Mitigtion can apply if an attempt to bind was made.

1st RC French player throws a swing arm/Tackle into Peter O Mahoney, POM is actually falling to the floor when contact is made - no mitigation given for player going down as in the first instance.

Always illegal! Therefore no mitigation

2nd RC player is taken above the horizonal and brought down to ground on his side, it looks so much worse because of the size disparity between the two players. normally that would be a YC and isnt reviewed at all by LP.

On the side. Can start at PK only. Considering amount of force etc

Dont get me wrong they are easy RCs to sell but its hard to see mitigation given to one team for a player dropping and not to another, and not to go through the full review for the 2nd Rc was strange.


Sound fair enough calls (based on not having seen the incidents).
 
Shelflife said:
2nd RC player is taken above the horizonal and brought down to ground on his side, it looks so much worse because of the size disparity between the two players. normally that would be a YC and isnt reviewed at all by LP.

Dont get me wrong they are easy RCs to sell but its hard to see mitigation given to one team for a player dropping and not to another, and not to go through the full review for the 2nd Rc was strange.
Click to expand...
But for the actions of POM in taking the tackle sideways, that would have been a straightforward head dump. It's similar to the tackler not getting away with a spear if the ball carrier braces for impact, and would otherwise have been head first.

Your representation of that tackle isn't a complete picture.
 
SimonSmith said:
But for the actions of POM in taking the tackle sideways, that would have been a straightforward head dump. It's similar to the tackler not getting away with a spear if the ball carrier braces for impact, and would otherwise have been head first.

Your representation of that tackle isn't a complete picture.
Click to expand...
Hi Simon

I dont agree with the POM theory, I think the French player was trying to bring him down on his side anyway.

Some of the Munster lads on twitter believe that POM is the second coming and that he saved Casey.

I dont have a major problem with the RCs, I was just suprised that he didnt formally review it.
 
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