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Lifting?

R

Robert Burns

, Referees in Canada, RugbyRefs.com Webmaster
Staff member
We all know it's not allowed, according to the laws of the game.

But how many let it go, and how many of you pull it up?

Do you stop the players gripping the shorts before the lift?
 
Whilst on my tours of rugby websites I found out that In the SRU they actually allow pre gripping on the shorts for lineouts at all levels above U19, below this they di not.

What is your take on this, is it the correct way to go?
 
Robert Burns said:
We all know it's not allowed, according to the laws of the game.

But how many let it go, and how many of you pull it up?

Do you stop the players gripping the shorts before the lift?
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Yet another of the conundrums we are faced with game in and game out.

If we applied the Laws strictly, then it is unlikely we would see much of a game. There has to be some flexibility/latitude.

We have to take our position based on a whole host of factors. Age, Level of game, competence of players involved etc etc ad nauseam.

I allow pre-gripping from Colts upwards, but with the proviso that they get their jumper back down safely. This is explained to them at the pre-match briefing. They get one chance to get it wrong. If that does happen then, free kick them and tell them no more pre-gripping.

I am more concerned with the lower level sides trying to lift at knee level. Definite "no no". Any comments ?
 
pricci said:
Yet another of the conundrums we are faced with game in and game out.

If we applied the Laws strictly, then it is unlikely we would see much of a game. There has to be some flexibility/latitude.

We have to take our position based on a whole host of factors. Age, Level of game, competence of players involved etc etc ad nauseam.

I allow pre-gripping from Colts upwards, but with the proviso that they get their jumper back down safely. This is explained to them at the pre-match briefing. They get one chance to get it wrong. If that does happen then, free kick them and tell them no more pre-gripping.

I am more concerned with the lower level sides trying to lift at knee level. Definite "no no". Any comments ?
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Lifting at Knee level is obviously on a safety side a huge no no, there is no way support can be given. I also have no real problem with pre gripping, The way I look at it is that if they have pre-gripped then the chance of the support bing dangerous is less than if the jumper goes up and then the support is applied, which could haveanything from hands in wrong position to a hand slip and topple the jumper.
 
Robert Burns said:
Lifting at Knee level is obviously on a safety side a huge no no, there is no way support can be given. I also have no real problem with pre gripping, The way I look at it is that if they have pre-gripped then the chance of the support bing dangerous is less than if the jumper goes up and then the support is applied, which could haveanything from hands in wrong position to a hand slip and topple the jumper.
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Solid answewr which I totally support, pardon the pun.
 
pricci said:
I am more concerned with the lower level sides trying to lift at knee level. Definite "no no". Any comments ?
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why "definite"?

Why would a level 12 team that has practised that manouvre over and over be a "no no" as opposed to a level 5 team that hasn't ?

didds
 
How can you assure safe support if lifting at the knee? That's not support at all, if the player was to topple either way holding the knee is not going to protect him is it?

where as gripping on the shorts is much better as the weight ratio above the grip is much more balanced.

BTW, welcome to the forums didds.
 
Robert Burns said:
How can you assure safe support if lifting at the knee? That's not support at all, if the player was to topple either way holding the knee is not going to protect him is it?
where as gripping on the shorts is much better as the weight ratio above the grip is much more balanced.
BTW, welcome to the forums didds.
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Hmmm. I do understand your point Robert, but the only players that grip on the shorts these days are the rear li.. sorry... supporter. Front supporters all support on the thighs and I'm not convinced that that is any safer on two legs than one anyway (in that two hands on one leg is a stronger grip than one hand on one leg). And unless we stop supporting on "flesh" there is no way of telling if a team is more or less safe lifting with one or two legs.

The one caveat I'd make is probably U19 rugby (possibly women's as well but I haven't seen enough lineouts in the female game to really make a call there) where players are still getting used to lif... supporting anyway.

Great resource incidentally Rob!

Didds
 
From the way i understand the law, front support on the thigh is fine, but no lower.

and Cheers, hoping this will help lots of refs (Inc me)

:D
 
Robert Burns said:
From the way i understand the law, front support on the thigh is fine, but no lower.

and Cheers, hoping this will help lots of refs (Inc me)

:D
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Indeed. Front support on the thighs, rear support on the shorts. When doen properly is the best and safets way to support.

But the thread started out asking about "lifting".

I have a confession to make - I find it extraordinarily difficult to judge what is lifting and what is supporting. I know the old saw about finger positions - pointing up is supporting, clenched grip is lifting - but I think that one died when pre-gripping became legal.

I don't think I have ever penalised anybody for lifting.

I have penalised props who simply let their jumper drop to the ground - support going up and you MUST support coming down.
 
as if there's not enough things to watch for already.

but dead right, what goes up, must come down, safely!
 
Robert Burns said:
From the way i understand the law, front support on the thigh is fine, but no lower.
:D
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Law 19.9

(g) Lifting. A line-out player must not lift a team-mate. (Free)

(h) Support before jumping. A player must not support a team-mate before the team-mate has jumped. (Free)

(k) Support of a player. A player must not support a jumping team-mate below the shorts from behind or below the thighs from the front. (Penalty)

Lifting is definitely happening, but I think it's being disguised as support. When you see a player reaching the heights they do, there's no way a human could jump that high even with support. The support is effectively pushing up the jumper. Why is this law (g) being ignored?

Support at the thighs is allowed, but only from the front.(k).
 
Red Munster said:
Lifting is definitely happening, but I think it's being disguised as support. When you see a player reaching the heights they do, there's no way a human could jump that high even with support. The support is effectively pushing up the jumper. Why is this law (g) being ignored?
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If the players starts to jump under his own power then he is being supported, if he is hoisted off the ground without jumping himself he is being lifted.

But how the hell can anybody tell!

Though in practise I can't see any jumper not actually spring upwards himself as part of the movement...so surely they are all merely being supported?
 
Davet said:
If the players starts to jump under his own power then he is being supported, if he is hoisted off the ground without jumping himself he is being lifted.

But how the hell can anybody tell!

Though in practise I can't see any jumper not actually spring upwards himself as part of the movement...so surely they are all merely being supported?
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As an ex-prop I can tell you it is almost impossible to truly lift somebody into a catching position, especially with any "snap" or speed!

When the jumper actually jumps, it is a far easier job to "lift" the moving body to greater heights.

So - under the wording above almost certainly jumpers are being supported and not lifted ie they are getting themselves off the ground. the reality of it all though is that to my mind a support is to hold in place ... what I - and everuybody else does - is truly lifting in that we are moving a body to another position.

I guess the answer is the IRB needed (or felt they needed) to legislate to permit an already comon practise at elite level especially abroad (SA!) but didn't want to lose any face (pathetic!) so made thses distinctions about 2supporting" and "lifting" when the reality was that it is alkl an assisted lift!

didds
 
Thank God I found this thread.
As most of you will have guessed I'm not only new to the site but am new to refing.
I had my first game yesterday, and was asked, "Ref this is OK isn't it", the guy and his colleague had full grip both front and back of the jumpers shorts. Sh!t here's a test, went through my mind, no I said no pre gripping!
But we did that all last season, I don't care says me, you can have your hands slipped loosely under the short, but the rules are NO PRE GRIP and NO LIFTING supports fine.
Now this is at level 10 and it was a third team friendly!
OK clear enough well when it comes to the game, and remember it's my first, GOD how many can you look at in a second :eek: !, so it isn't until the second half I notice neither side is loosely placing hands under shorts but both sides are gripping, I let it go for the remainder of the match as the players during the match had been supported and lowered safely, but I could not tell if even though they had pre-griped if they were lifting or not.
This has been playing on my mind so sorry to resurrect this thread just needed to get that off my chest.
 
Gazmaz, welcome to the magic world of refereeing. My approach to this question is to remember the basic mantra of safety, equity and then law and that safety overides the other two. So, is it safe or safer to pregrip than not to pregrip? Answer, probably.

In common with other contributors I cannot tell the difference between lifting and supporting in normal practice. I am inclined to believe that a straight lift is virtually impossible but would agree that most jumps become assisted lifts. Back to the first premise, is it safe? If it is safe in that it looks good, is well drilled and contributes positively to the game then fine, there are far too many other things going on in the line out to worry about than something that is not usually a problem.

I also do not think pre gripping is a problem either; it is better to see controlled support with two hands rather than a half baked one handed effort, because he has missed his grip, resulting in an unstable jumper.

I expect an avalanche of earache but us chaps in deepest, darkest Hampshire have been permitting pre gripping as a Society policy for a couple of seasons now on grounds of safety.
 
Before we all get too het up about lifting v supporing we need to understand that the IRB when it legalised "supporting" almost undoubtably did so because the practise was already so widespread that it was easier to legalise rather than insist on a ban (cf. introduction of subs following the blatant abuse of "injuries" in a certain SA v NZ series in the late 90s...). However, one got the feeling that to effectively admit this was beyond them hence the alleged distinction between lifting and supporting in order to give the impression that they were introducing a new area rather than accepting a previous illegality. The bottom line is EVERYONE lifts, and "supporting" is merely a euphamism.

didds
 
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