Knock On Law .
- Thread starter crossref
- Start date
Harry
Active member
So are we saying that, as in the RFU video, I'm running forwards and throw the ball over my head to a player behind me who catches it, that is not a forward pass even though the ball itself travelled forwards.
But take the second player away and the ball falls to the ground it's a knock on?
Because that is how I understand what is being said here.
But take the second player away and the ball falls to the ground it's a knock on?
Because that is how I understand what is being said here.
If I throw the ball behind me that is not a forward pass?
I think Harrys point is:
If I'm running forwards at 10m/s, and throw the ball up and slightly behind me into the air, and continue running at 10m/s. The ball will be travelling backwards relative to me, and immediately start to slow (due to air resistance) but still be moving forwards (towards the opposition goal line - lets say at 5m/s for arguments sake).
If a player is running behind me and catches the ball - all is well (as per the old IRB video). But if no one is behind me, and the ball hits the ground ahead of where I threw it, but backwards relative to me - that's a knock on?
(I'm not saying that's what it should be, but asking if that what the arguments above are postulating)....
All of that is irrelevant.
[LAWS=]Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of
the player passing the ball move forward.[/LAWS]
Was the action of the arms to throw the ball forwards or backwards, if you throw it behind you then the action of the arms is to throw backwards, so it's legal. The effect of momentum and relative velocity has no bearing.
Ball was knocked forward direction, but travelled backwards, so for me not a KO
Who knocked it on?
Harry
Active member
The ball carrier.
If I understand the argument put forward it's not deemed a forward pass even though the ball travelled forward
But if the ball goes to ground from an advancing player Jz558 says it's a KO as the ball landed closer to the oppositions goal line.
I can't square both those statements
Dickie E
Referees in Australia
The key is to not conflate throw forward (forward pass) and knock on. They are 2 very diiferent events with different definitions
Go on, draw out the key differences as you see them
We've been here many times before but just in case it makes a difference this time.
Quite simply refer to the definitions:
Pass: A player throws or hands the ball to another player.
Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Quite simply refer to the definitions:
Pass: A player throws or hands the ball to another player.
Throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
Three different scenarios defined here. Does this mean if you lose possession (1.) or if the ball hits the arm (3.) then the ball itself has to go forward.
If hand hits the ball (2.) it's the direction of the hit, not the direction of the ball that matters?
I think the intention of the knock on law is that for a knock on two things must happen
1 .. the direction of knock is forward
2 .. AND the ball actually travels forward.
1 without 2 is common, and conventionally is not a knock on.
2 but not 1 is more difficult to visualise
I would put it this way:
- When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or
- When a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or
- When the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward,
and
The ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
- If it is lost forward and recovered > no KO, if it is lost forward and it touches the ground or another player > KO.
- If it is hit forward and recovered > no KN, if it is hit forward and hits ground or another player > KO
- If the ball hits the hand or arm goes forward and is recovered > no KO, if it hits the hand or arm and goes forward and hits ground or another player > KO
But yes both 1 and 3 refer to direction of travel of the ball.
If the consternation is about the Argentina game, condition 2, the player was deemed to have hit the ball forward, quite clear scenario 2.
If he had hit it and then caught all fine and dandy but it touched the ground and went into touch.
Not Kurt Weaver
Referees in America
I lost track with all these clues. I watched Argy French video. Now I'm not The Amazing Kreskin , so I can't really ascertain intention.
5m l/o to France. France could also have gone quickly.
5m l/o to France. France could also have gone quickly.
'Hit the ball forward' referring - as the ref made clear - to the direction of the player's hand (clearly forwards - ie towards opposition's DBL) not the direction of the ball's subsequent travel (clearly backwards w.r.t. DBL).
Here's a little essay by AW Wilde (social media reffing celeb)
In his view the direction of travel relative to the ground is completely unimportant
In his view the direction of travel relative to the ground is completely unimportant
I think that to be a knock on the ball has to travel forward over the ground
And I think that calling knock on when the ball actually travelled backwards would cause a lot of head scratches!