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I cant see the argument

andyscott

andyscott


Referees in England
Well, this is the match report, I cant see the argument of why it shouldnt have been???? Sounds nailed on to me.

'With XXXX on the attack, a spilled ball created an opportunistic counter strike down the visitors left flank. XXXX chased down the XX runner and with just metres to go reached out and grabbed the back of his shirt at the collar, pulling him down and with the support of XXX, stopping his momentum inches short.'

'Any joy from the XXXX faithful was very short lived as the referee deemed it necessary, in light of the collar grab, to both award a Penalty Try and to issue a yellow card.'
 
andyscott said:
The player and coach were going ballistic after the game :)
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I trust it was at the player for being such a dick and collar slinging and leaving no choice for the referee to PTand leaving his team mates one short for 10 mins? :sarc:

Wouldn't it be nice, just once, to reef the collar from behind of the whining coach so hard that it drops him like a ton of sh!te, and then you say 'Hurts, doesn't it? That's why!' And then walk off. :buttkick:
 
Get lots of Collar grabs up here in RL land. Amazing how many coaches dont't know the laws never mind the players and crowd
 
I did the same at a L9 game about 3 years ago - about 5 mins from time.

Coach and player were probably annoyed but never voiced their disapproval which is probably why I never mentioned it on here at the time.

Coach has moved clubs - now at a L8 club - and he still speaks to me :biggrin: although he is not a volatile sort. His club are currently near the top of Y2 and doing well.

Coach pragmatism sometimes rubs off on the players. Coach dickheadedness certainly does IME.
 
Too often players learn something is wrong at the point of a loud whistle.... Societies would save themselves a lot of trouble if they addressed these mis-conceptions in advance on their web sites.

You could have a page, call it "Things Your Coach Never Seems to Tell You" (OK, that's a joke), but make it a shared experience where we talk about the most common mis-conceptions we encounter. For example, just by saying "If you scrag someone from behind, we usually have to give at least a yellow card".

Now I'm off on this topic, there are about six main areas where we find most of our problems, and these are six area where players don't want to give away penalties, its just lack of shared understanding.

Here's one example of my dream. You hear wise players saying "Learn to play the ref", and it breaks my heart, they don't have to learn new laws for each game they play, so why can't ref's offer similar consistency in much of what they do. The example I would use is when is the ball out. I say, "not one hand on, not two hands on, but when he picks it up. If its actually come clean out already, then that's game on too." And that works. What if as a society we all agreed to do that? What if, as a society, we published that? We would be giving decent players a better chance to compete on the edge without giving away penalties, and avoiding conflict when we have to give the penalties... the players would have been warned.

Consistency of patter is another area we could make giant strides in. For example offside at rucks and mauls, if the Blue team looks like getting offside I always tell the teams I will use the words "Backfoot blues" at which point they can look along the line and see if its them. Its quick, it goes straight to the issue, and it helps players understand what is required.

Before the "surely...", "obviously..." and logic leap brigade jump on this, chew it over and see how far it would work, and suggest how we could progress it.
 
Blackberry said:
Too often players learn something is wrong at the point of a loud whistle.... Societies would save themselves a lot of trouble if they addressed these mis-conceptions in advance on their web sites.

You could have a page, call it "Things Your Coach Never Seems to Tell You" (OK, that's a joke), but make it a shared experience where we talk about the most common mis-conceptions we encounter. For example, just by saying "If you scrag someone from behind, we usually have to give at least a yellow card".

Now I'm off on this topic, there are about six main areas where we find most of our problems, and these are six area where players don't want to give away penalties, its just lack of shared understanding.

Here's one example of my dream. You hear wise players saying "Learn to play the ref", and it breaks my heart, they don't have to learn new laws for each game they play, so why can't ref's offer similar consistency in much of what they do. The example I would use is when is the ball out. I say, "not one hand on, not two hands on, but when he picks it up. If its actually come clean out already, then that's game on too." And that works. What if as a society we all agreed to do that? What if, as a society, we published that? We would be giving decent players a better chance to compete on the edge without giving away penalties, and avoiding conflict when we have to give the penalties... the players would have been warned.

Consistency of patter is another area we could make giant strides in. For example offside at rucks and mauls, if the Blue team looks like getting offside I always tell the teams I will use the words "Backfoot blues" at which point they can look along the line and see if its them. Its quick, it goes straight to the issue, and it helps players understand what is required.

Before the "surely...", "obviously..." and logic leap brigade jump on this, chew it over and see how far it would work, and suggest how we could progress it.
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I completely agree. But sadly in England we don't have a culture of publishing clear, written guidelines. We have a culture of secret emails and cascades by word of mouth. Hence the inconsistency.

I really like the USA approach of Game Guidelines that cover all those sorts of things. Refs can read them and be consistent, clubs can read them and know what to expect (and hold refs accountable if they differ).

I'd love to see some written guidelines on
- when is it out?
- how straight is 'straight' (scrums and lineouts)
- in a tip-tackle, when considering whether it's a RC, a YC or just a PK, does it make any difference if he lands on his head/shoulder/breaks fall with hands
- if they don't contest the line out, does it matter if it's not straight?
- do you have to let him up?
- is it ever OK to use a hand in the ruck ?

Don' tget me wrong, I have my views on what is the correct answer to all these, but I also know that other referees thinkg differently and all these are things where I think as refs we could be more consistent, and lack of written guidelines is a problem.
 
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We're obviously made of different stuff this side of the border, I have never seen nor heard of this being penalised.

Swinging people by their collar, certainly, but not being dragged down.
 
Wow. Really? Obviously in your parts you don't think being grabbed at the collar is initially high contact on the neck and when it's reefed back to stop the player in his tracks and half choking the player that it isn't dangerous?
 
menace said:
Wow. Really? Obviously in your parts you don't think being grabbed at the collar is initially high contact on the neck and when it's reefed back to stop the player in his tracks and half choking the player that it isn't dangerous?
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I can assure those who think differently, that when running towards the oppo's goal line and having someone grab you by the back of the collar pulling you back and down IS dangerous. I have a flattened disc in my lower back from having it done to me back in '81 (can remember the date as it was my 21st birthday). Manageable but ongoing periodic inconvenience since.
 
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