didds
Resident Club Coach
though the basic conceptual law will have to remain for the 99.9% of rugby played globally that dont have a smart sensored ball
Forward passes in the Prem
- Thread starter Stu10
- Start date
What do you reckon is the basic conceptual law though ? And why don't they put that in the Law book
didds
Resident Club Coach
One thing I am pretty sure of : prior to 2017 I don't think anyone trying to define a forward pass would have mentioned the direction of the arms
Most players probably still wouldn't
@BikingBud your smileys are very cryptic ! I dunno if you want to elaborate ? I have no idea what they are meant to mean 
If you have something to say, why don't you share it with the rest of the class
If you have something to say, why don't you share it with the rest of the class
The ball is thrown forward!
It is in the Law book!
Just in case anybody has woken up and feel they are in the twilight zone:
We are going around again.
I though you had it here:@BikingBud your smileys are very cryptic ! I dunno if you want to elaborate ? I have no idea what they are meant to mean
But it appears not
(a distraught face because I am cringing as we revisit this relatively straightforward topic.
Configuring a smart ball to detect a throw forward is anything but straightforward...
The first task WR will have to do is to come up with a definition of throw forward that can be used by the smart ball programmers
(Hint it will involve sudden change in velocity of the ball. It won't refer to the ball carriers arms)
The first task WR will have to do is to come up with a definition of throw forward that can be used by the smart ball programmers
(Hint it will involve sudden change in velocity of the ball. It won't refer to the ball carriers arms)
But it is!
And dare I say the chap behind it might just have the skills, knowledge and ability to make it work:
I only have an MSc so I am in comparison ignorant.
Before the game, set the ball up and align it with the pitch and calibrate the sensors, they even appear to have a suitable item already in use that the ref lifts the ball off at the start of the game. This is quite normal for all inertial reference systems, a static position and to establish which way is across and along the pitch.
Then it will measure velocities and resolve for changes in velocity along and across the pitch.
When there is a pass that is accompanied by a measurable jerk forward, towards the opposition DBL, it can be determined as Thrown Forward.
TMO gets the flag on screen and advises ref in the middle, last pass was thrown forward Bill,
OK just seeing if there is anything developing, nope peep, come back for the Thrown Forward blue put in.
Bear in mind the smart ball already tells us how far the ball has been kicked, I expect that is measuring the start impulse, ball being kicked and then the bounce impulse so it is probably working already.
Please watch the video:
And dare I say the chap behind it might just have the skills, knowledge and ability to make it work:
I only have an MSc so I am in comparison ignorant.
Before the game, set the ball up and align it with the pitch and calibrate the sensors, they even appear to have a suitable item already in use that the ref lifts the ball off at the start of the game. This is quite normal for all inertial reference systems, a static position and to establish which way is across and along the pitch.
Then it will measure velocities and resolve for changes in velocity along and across the pitch.
When there is a pass that is accompanied by a measurable jerk forward, towards the opposition DBL, it can be determined as Thrown Forward.
TMO gets the flag on screen and advises ref in the middle, last pass was thrown forward Bill,
OK just seeing if there is anything developing, nope peep, come back for the Thrown Forward blue put in.
Bear in mind the smart ball already tells us how far the ball has been kicked, I expect that is measuring the start impulse, ball being kicked and then the bounce impulse so it is probably working already.
Please watch the video:
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Well that's exactly what I have been saying
A throw forward has to be redefined as a "measurable jerk forward" (note no mention of the arms)
WR will future rneed to define, or agree , the tolerances for "measurable"
Focus will be on timing : matching the moment of the recorded jerk forward to the video to determine if it was caused by the pass or something else (a tackle, a strip a knock by a tackler ..m)
Every other Hawkeye situation I can think of is judging the motion of a ball against a fixed framework (was the ball over a line).
This is why it's relatively easy to work out how far a ball was kicked(fixed frame of reference)
Throw forward is more complex as there is no fixed frame of reference
A throw forward has to be redefined as a "measurable jerk forward" (note no mention of the arms)
WR will future rneed to define, or agree , the tolerances for "measurable"
Focus will be on timing : matching the moment of the recorded jerk forward to the video to determine if it was caused by the pass or something else (a tackle, a strip a knock by a tackler ..m)
Every other Hawkeye situation I can think of is judging the motion of a ball against a fixed framework (was the ball over a line).
This is why it's relatively easy to work out how far a ball was kicked(fixed frame of reference)
Throw forward is more complex as there is no fixed frame of reference
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But the framework is fixed:
I am unsure how it could be any clearer
As the area of concern is where a player in relatively open space and carrying the ball makes a pass which may be considered "Thrown Forward" the acceleration of the ball towards the opposition DBL can only (freak of weather accepted) be due to the carrying player passing the ball forward:
If opponents are around and it is lost forward, eg in a tackle then that might be a different offence and it might be difficult to ascertain who applied the force but look at the thread title and the examples.
You did watch the video?
Playing area - The field of play plus the in-goal areas. The touch lines, touch-in-goal lines and dead-ball lines are not part of the playing area.
andForward - Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.
I am unsure how it could be any clearer
As the area of concern is where a player in relatively open space and carrying the ball makes a pass which may be considered "Thrown Forward" the acceleration of the ball towards the opposition DBL can only (freak of weather accepted) be due to the carrying player passing the ball forward:
Throw forward - When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.
If opponents are around and it is lost forward, eg in a tackle then that might be a different offence and it might be difficult to ascertain who applied the force but look at the thread title and the examples.
You did watch the video?
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Volun-selected
Referees in America
ultimately I think they could technically and mathematically work this out - unpack all the rotation and tumble to work out where the ball is in realtime - but how does the ball know whether red or blue is in possession. A pass “back” relative to blue’s goal one is good for blue, but forward for red, unless of course it’s a kick (which I assume they would spot by the ball position falling from hip or stomach height to knee height) or can the system also work out who is carrying the ball?
All great questions !
Highlighting the complexities
I think you can normally distinguish a kick from a throw because a kick is more sudden and more forceful, but a subtle little grubber kick might be tricky
But I agree this technology will most likely need humans to identify that a specific moment is a pass, and the technology will analyse the motion of the ball (not the arms!) to determine if it the pass was forward
Offload passes will be hard, because the ball carrier themself is subject to a sudden deceleration at the moment of the pass, confusing the issue (just as it does for humans)
I suspect that the tech might yield some non-intuitive results that lead to further law tweaks (like offside laws in football are being reconsidered )
Highlighting the complexities
I think you can normally distinguish a kick from a throw because a kick is more sudden and more forceful, but a subtle little grubber kick might be tricky
But I agree this technology will most likely need humans to identify that a specific moment is a pass, and the technology will analyse the motion of the ball (not the arms!) to determine if it the pass was forward
Offload passes will be hard, because the ball carrier themself is subject to a sudden deceleration at the moment of the pass, confusing the issue (just as it does for humans)
I suspect that the tech might yield some non-intuitive results that lead to further law tweaks (like offside laws in football are being reconsidered )
As has been demonstrated by VAR in football and hawkeye in cricket, almost anything is possible with technology but the weakness in the chain is always created by the introduction of humans to interpret the margins of error that need to be applied. How far is forward? 10mm over a 10m pass? 50 mm? No amount of technology will remove debate, just the topics change.
perhaps this will help - from World Rugby no less - what the ball is attempting to do isBut the framework is fixed:
Playing area - The field of play plus the in-goal areas. The touch lines, touch-in-goal lines and dead-ball lines are not part of the playing area.and
Forward - Towards the opposition’s dead-ball line.
I am unsure how it could be any clearer
so methodology is comparing the relative velocities of two moving items.
Although I don't think that's quite correct either, what I think it's actually doing is measuring the velocity of the ball before the pass (which would be the same as the player) and then again after the pass.
Rugby’s smart ball set to support match officiating at the World Rugby U20 Championship | World Rugby
World Rugby is collaborating with Sportable and Gilbert to undertake the world’s first trial of smart ball technology in a live match officiating capacity at the World Rugby U20 Championship in South Africa in June.
www.world.rugby
here's a good one
New technology can tell how much a kick is swirling but not whether a pass is forward or a try has been scored – yet
www.theguardian.com
New technology can tell how much a kick is swirling but not whether a pass is forward or a try has been scored – yet
Smartball has revolutionised data in rugby and refereeing could be next | Gavin Willacy
New technology can tell how much a kick is swirling but not whether a pass is forward or a try has been scored – yet
www.theguardian.com
Stu10
Referees in England
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