England v Italy - when is a sack not a sack.

[BikingBud]

I'm not sure they do. They are without doubt quic ker than most of us. But I do wonder if they referee to pictures in their head - they have pictures of what is legal and illegal, and use that to guide their decision making.

A lot of referees process linearly - tackler, ball carrier, jackler, other players, strictly in that order. The better ones can parallel process multiple things at the same time. Some look at a picture, tell you it's wrong, and then have to work backwards to tell you why.

I feel that is why we see so much "commentary" now from referees within the professional game. By vocalising what they see I think they are publicly rationalising what they see.

The comment about Owen Doyle "He also took exception to Gardner's comment of "great roll away, number 10" is an indication of changes in time. https://rugbyrefs.com/index.php?threads/rucking-out-of-control.23088/post-395300

Also the linear appreciation is as a result of the training and guidance, if the tackler doesn't roll ping them, if the ball carrier doesn't release ping them, if the jackler goes off their feet ping them but in some of these where it does occur so quickly, one thing cannot be achieved because of the other action. The smarter players always have and always will exploit this, the jackler pressing on the ball or pulling into the tackled player whilst shouting "ref he's not letting go!"

 

[BikingBud]

yes. But I was responding to

>>> Things happen so quickly in today's game, can a referee's eyes & brain process it all accurately & quickly? <<<<

I was expressing a thought about potential for the referee to have a closed mind, "I've made my mind up and am certain" based upon them having the only important or accurate picture and not trusting or fully considering their expert advisors.

 

[didds]

I was expressing a thought about potential for the referee to have a closed mind, "I've made my mind up and am certain" based upon them having the only important or accurate picture and not trusting or fully considering their expert advisors.

then id hope that their mentors pick up on the possibility and share time with that ref to find out what happened and why.

because otherwise what is the point of a To4 ?

 

[Shelflife]

The phrase "Law Drift " from biking bud is excellent and explains so many of the woes of reffing at elite level.

Standards are allowed to drift in the search for more ball in play time and tries being scored. Scrums are being managed out of the game which will be an absolute travesty. Running rugby is great to watch but I can remember a Leicester tigers games from long ago where they won a scrum inside their own half and walked the opposition 15m up the field, won the pen and instead of kicking they opted for the scrum and walked them another 15m , it was magnificent to watch.

Law drift allows teams to collapse scrums and play away from the back, hookers to stand on the pitch and move clearly off the LOT to their own side, SH to put the ball into the 2nd row and lineout peels to set up the maul. The problem is where do you stop ? This in turn leads to situations where it was black and white - hooker on the field of play not allowed to ahh sure its grand.

The latest thing is pens being taken 1-3 meters in front of the mark, whats the point of the mark if you allow them to run halfway way up the pitch and then kick the ball.

In Super rugby this weekend Ben O Keefe reffing. Try scored on 39mins Ben says there will be a restart. Clock in the red and the ball is kicked straight into touch, Ben clearly says it wasnt deliberate so its HT. When did that law change and he made a huge rod for his back if the same thing happens again at FT and theres only 2 points in the difference.

Its very frustrating to watch the laws being eroded in this way.

 

[Marc Wakeham]

The phrase "Law Drift " from biking bud is excellent and explains so many of the woes of reffing at elite level.

Standards are allowed to drift in the search for more ball in play time and tries being scored. Scrums are being managed out of the game which will be an absolute travesty. Running rugby is great to watch but I can remember a Leicester tigers games from long ago where they won a scrum inside their own half and walked the opposition 15m up the field, won the pen and instead of kicking they opted for the scrum and walked them another 15m , it was magnificent to watch.

Law drift allows teams to collapse scrums and play away from the back, hookers to stand on the pitch and move clearly off the LOT to their own side, SH to put the ball into the 2nd row and lineout peels to set up the maul. The problem is where do you stop ? This in turn leads to situations where it was black and white - hooker on the field of play not allowed to ahh sure its grand.

The latest thing is pens being taken 1-3 meters in front of the mark, whats the point of the mark if you allow them to run halfway way up the pitch and then kick the ball.

In Super rugby this weekend Ben O Keefe reffing. Try scored on 39mins Ben says there will be a restart. Clock in the red and the ball is kicked straight into touch, Ben clearly says it wasnt deliberate so its HT. When did that law change and he made a huge rod for his back if the same thing happens again at FT and theres only 2 points in the difference.

Its very frustrating to watch the laws being eroded in this way.

Excellent.

Also Whilst a foot in an inch is "unimportant" It's only an inch . Well we add anouther inch ("only an inch") etc. Before long hookers who once were 5 mtrs from the lineout ront man will be a foot or so away. But hey what's an inch? All these incemental "what's an inch?" moments lead to eventual chaos. But hey, we will be gone by then so it is "somebody else's problem.

Also tries do not automatically make for "entertaining" rugby. A good "contest" is far more important for me. Some of the most boring games have been 10 try affairs. I remember one superb 0-3 defeat my club suffered against Llanelli man years ago. Great running, great defence A scrum battle and (real) rucking - it was back in the 80s and mauling. Fantastic stuff.

 

[Volun-selected]

The Sisyphean hunt for “entertaining” rugby has, I believe, painted the Unions into a corner of their own making.

The big international matches essentially fund the rest of the Union. But due to bad planning, bad luck, incompetence, or mismanagement, or combination thereof (take your pick as you see fit) not enough is getting down to the grassroots.

Those funds are vital to build both a solid pipeline of talent but equally important (in my mind at least) to building a core community of players and families who want to watch and support the game at all levels.

But the Unions have chased the spectacle for a quick financial win and now are dependent on the big matches. Fully locked into a battle for eyeballs and viewer numbers, any decision is driven by the blind need to create rugby that’s “attractive to the casual viewer” and enforcing “minor” laws that could get in the way have become an afterthought.