[Law] Dropping out of the line

[lawsons]

Is it just me do refs not ping this any more?

 

[Balones]

I have been raising this point for a few years and the general response I get is ‘we’ve got more important things to look at and consider’.

 

[chbg]

I have been raising this point for a few years and the general response I get is ‘we’ve got more important things to look at and consider’.

Particularly when changing positions (18.17a) and peeling (to receive the ball, 18.28) are permitted; it is not as though every change in the straight lines is liable to penalty.

 

[Balones]

Particularly when changing positions (18.17a) and peeling (to receive the ball, 18.28) are permitted; it is not as though every change in the straight lines is liable to penalty.[/QUOT

If they complied wuth 18.17a and 18.28 there’d be no priblem. What we are seeing a lot of is jumping out and not changing place. Partial peeling but not continuing to move etc, and generally a pod of players waiting for the lifting pod to let the catcher come down.

 

[SimonSmith]

I have been raising this point for a few years and the general response I get is ‘we’ve got more important things to look at and consider’.

The very philosophy that made scrums what they are today

 

[chbg]

Particularly when changing positions (18.17a) and peeling (to receive the ball, 18.28) are permitted; it is not as though every change in the straight lines is liable to penalty.[/QUOT

If they complied wuth 18.17a and 18.28 there’d be no priblem. What we are seeing a lot of is jumping out and not changing place. Partial peeling but not continuing to move etc, and generally a pod of players waiting for the lifting pod to let the catcher come down.

My point is that it is simpler to penalise when it is easy to discriminate between actions. It is not possible to tell whether a step out of the line is permitted or not as that step is made. It is the whole action that has to be considered, thus requiring attention, which many referees assess to be more profitably applied elsewhere.

 

[Stu10]

Particularly when changing positions (18.17a) and peeling (to receive the ball, 18.28) are permitted; it is not as though every change in the straight lines is liable to penalty.

I was watching U16 this past weekend and one of the teams was moving players from the middle/back of the line to the front as the ball was thrown, and were standing stationary and outside the lineout ready for the catcher coming down to immediately bind and drive. Depending on the timing, am I correct in thinking a free kick should be awarded against the throwing team according to Law 18.17.a or 18.29.d, depending on whether the players move before or after the ball is thrown in?

Would you give a free kick? On the one hand, we see this allowed at elite level, and at age-grade they are developing their timing, etc; however, on the other hand, they did not execute within the laws and were gaining an advantage, and correct laws should be taught at this age. I'm not sure what I would have done if I had the whistle... is it being a jobsworth to blow up in this instance?

I'm thinking as a write this... if I was thinking fast enough, I would stop and explain the first time and blow up if it happened again.

 

[chbg]

Would I give a FK? On the second occasion that I saw it, yes. On the first possibly not, depending on materiality (how effective, how close to scoring?). Would try to warn them if I remembered too! At this age group, it is the coach who is mis-leading them, so words after the game would be useful (and probably ignored, as the referees at this age group on a Sunday may regularly let it go).

 

[Dickie E]

I'm thinking as a write this... if I was thinking fast enough, I would stop and explain the first time and blow up if it happened again.

Depending on the level of the game I'd likely stop play, explain to them the error of their ways, and reset the lineout.

At this age there's often lots of dicking around ... no-one in the tram tracks (or in wrong position), not sure about numbers, can't remember the calls, coming into lineout then leaving, etc. Slow it down and get them to do it right.

When you say "explain the first time", I'm curious what you would say.

 

[Stu10]

Depending on the level of the game I'd likely stop play, explain to them the error of their ways, and reset the lineout.

At this age there's often lots of dicking around ... no-one in the tram tracks (or in wrong position), not sure about numbers, can't remember the calls, coming into lineout then leaving, etc. Slow it down and get them to do it right.

When you say "explain the first time", I'm curious what you would say.

I would say that they cannot step out of the lineout to the scrumhalf position and wait there for the ball to be caught and brought down. They cannot step out of the line to form a drive before the ball is thrown by the hooker, and, after the ball is thrown, they must time their movement to arrive and form the drive immediately.

Does that sound accurate, reasonable and clear?

 

[Stu10]

Would I give a FK? On the second occasion that I saw it, yes. On the first possibly not, depending on materiality (how effective, how close to scoring?). Would try to warn them if I remembered too! At this age group, it is the coach who is mis-leading them, so words after the game would be useful (and probably ignored, as the referees at this age group on a Sunday may regularly let it go).

I agree with everything here. They were making significant gain each time it was done... effectively three players were pre-bound and waiting ready to drive the catcher as soon as he hit the ground... the defending team were in no position to counter that and subsequently >10m drive and also a penalty for collapsing on several occasions.

I would say the players involved have a good grasp of the game and knew what they were doing in general terms (ie catch and drive), but not aware of the finer details of the laws.... I think that sentence probably can also be applied to their coaches.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Another example of top referees not applying the laws and that then filtering down to the weeds!