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Defensive players options when counter rucking?

Z

zfer001


New Member
Hello there,

I've recently joined as a way of improving my understanding of the game as a player. With the many laws and issues surrounding them I figured referees would be the best source of knowledge! I've come up with an issue that I can't seem to find the answer for.

Scenario:

Blue player runs the ball into contact and is tackled by Red player. Both Red and Blue team arrive at the break down and form a ruck (very straight forward). Occasionally, when the defensive team (ie. Red team) realize they are unable to win the ball, they leave the ruck and fan out into the defensive line.

If one defensive player (red) remains in the ruck, counter rucks and is able to move through the middle of the offensive players (while the ball is still in the ruck), what options are available to them?

1. If they are able to step over the ball, are they allowed to pick the ball up?
2. Are they allowed to kick the ball forward?

I've recently started playing weight restricted rugby for the Auckland U85kg league. Two weeks ago I managed to make two turnovers in the game by counter rucking individually, getting one foot over the ball and then picking it up. I was not penalized either time. However, last night at training I was advised by our captain/scrum half that this is illegal. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Many thanks,
Zach
 
Great questions. Whenever you are unsure of the legality of an action in a ruck, go to http://www.irblaws.com/index.php?law=16 and just make sure what you are doing ticks off all those boxes.

As for your scenario. The law says that a player cannot use their hands in a ruck. A ruck is active when two players in contact contest over the ball. A ruck ends when the ball leaves the ruck.

Therefore, you cannot use your hands while the ruck is still active, and hence your actions were illegal. However, you still have the option to (A) kick the ball forward out of the ruck. Or (B) Completely clean out the opposition at the ruck, leaving no players in contact over the ball. In this scenario, there is no "hindmost feet", so as long as you come from behind the ball, you are free to pick it up as the offside line is virtually gone.

From a refs perspective all I'd like to see is that you either; clearly drive the other team off the ball and out of the ruck before you pick it up. Or (if you are still contesting with opposition players) kick the ball forward and out of the ruck.

From a players perspective, I would go with kicking the ball forward because from what you describe, that seems like the best way to get your team on the front foot.

If any ref says you can't kick the ball forward in a ruck, tell them that is a 7s rule. As long as you don't kick it out of someone's hands it should be good.
 
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Agree. You cannot pick up the ball while you are part of a ruck.

You can kick it forward.

Rather than pick it up, if you are driving forward in contact with opposition,then step one foot over the ball - but don't drive clear: the ruck then continues and the opponents back foot is their offside line. Your scrum half then has space to pick up the ball and use it. If you drive completely past the ball the the ruck is over, we have open play, and the ruck offside lines disappear, and onside opponents can get at the ball.
 
zfer001 said:
Hello there,

I've recently joined as a way of improving my understanding of the game as a player. With the many laws and issues surrounding them I figured referees would be the best source of knowledge! I've come up with an issue that I can't seem to find the answer for.

Scenario:
Blue player runs the ball into contact and is tackled by Red player. Both Red and Blue team arrive at the break down and form a ruck (very straight forward). Occasionally, when the defensive team (ie. Red team) realize they are unable to win the ball, they leave the ruck and fan out into the defensive line.

If one defensive player (red) remains in the ruck, counter rucks and is able to move through the middle [he can't move/wade/swim through the middle if he's unbound-bonafide counter rucking is being bound & pushing the opposition backwards off of the ball] of the offensive players (while the ball is still in the ruck), what options are available to them?

1. If they are able to step over the ball, are they allowed to pick the ball up?
If they are still BOUND into/on the ruck, then no. Law 16.4 says no handling in a ruck. If the ball is clearly being won, then referees will allow a scrum half to 'extract the ball' to allow play to continue.
-
2. Are they allowed to kick the ball forward?
If they are correctly bound and can kick the ball [not easy when engaged in bonafide rucking ...ie pushing ] WITHOUT it being dangerous to the players near the ball, then yes, otherwise no.

I've recently started playing weight restricted rugby for the Auckland U85kg league. Two weeks ago I managed to make two turnovers in the game by counter rucking individually, getting one foot over the ball and then picking it up. I was not penalized either time. 'occassionally you'll get away with such things, but don't rely on that' However, last night at training I was advised by our captain/scrum half that this is illegal.

Any help would be greatly appreciated !

Many thanks,
Zach
Click to expand...


Welcome to the site Zach, you'll learn that refereeing [if nothing else] is about judgement & opinion over 'materiality'.
As a general rule, all scrumhalfs know more than all referees combined !! - LOL
 
zfer001 said:
Two weeks ago I managed to make two turnovers in the game by counter rucking individually, getting one foot over the ball and then picking it up. I was not penalized either time. However, last night at training I was advised by our captain/scrum half that this is illegal. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Click to expand...

Your captain/scrum half is correct. If you are bound to an opposing player over the ball/tackle you are part of a ruck and you may not use your hands to play the ball.
 
itin said:
Your captain/scrum half is correct. If you are bound to an opposing player over the ball/tackle you are part of a ruck and you may not use your hands to play the ball.
Click to expand...

However, If you push/ruck ahead of the ball [which means the ball is now out, and the ruck is over] you may then detatch the opponent/teammate & reach back behind you & pick the ball up before the scrum half gets his mitts on it. Not easy, but not an offence .
 
Browner said:
However, If you push/ruck ahead of the ball [which means the ball is now out, and the ruck is over] you may then detatch the opponent/teammate & reach back behind you & pick the ball up before the scrum half gets his mitts on it. Not easy, but not an offence .
Click to expand...

True

But unless you have no support then why would you do it? Let the 9 pick up, its his job, he is on the front foot and he has full visibility of the options.
 
Wow thanks heaps everyone, I spent a whole day trying to find an exact answer to that question but managed to get one from you all within hours!

So my best bet would be to play at the ball with my feet. But, if I manage to counter ruck over and pass the ball (with both feet) then I can play it with my hands without getting into much trouble?
 
Yeah. There is no exact ruling as to when you are allowed to pick the ball up, but if you have pushed your opponents back and clearly won the contest so the ball is behind you. There is no issue if you quickly un-bind from the ruck and pick up the ball you just won fairly.

If you ever run into any troubles, just ask the ref when he thinks you have won the ball, and go off that.
 
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But, if I manage to counter ruck over and pass the ball (with both feet) then I can play it with my hands without getting into much trouble
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Yes, biut why would you - you would have to turn around, be in an awkward position, facing the wrong way.

Your job is to drive opponents off the ball and free it up for you scrum half, his job is to distribute it.

Rugby is a team game - play as a team. talk to your coach.
 
Ok - let me drop in a dissenting voice. By the way, Zfer001, a warm welcome to this forum. We benefit greatly from having players ask questions that bug them - and we hope you benefit from the answers.

So to all those refs who agreed with Zfer's skipper, let me remind them he was a #9 - and therefore a troublemaker :wink:. Zfer's scenario was: counter-rucker gets a foot over the ball (so ball is now under him, one foot ahead of, one behind, the ball). That player then picks up the ball.

No-one has yet addressed or considered the possibility that the counter rucker unbound fully. Agreed that if he retains a bind, he's handling in the ruck. But if he has unbound fully from the ruck, the ball is now behind and out of whatever remains of the ruck. Like a #8 unbinding from a scrum, it seems to me he should then be able to pick'n'go.
 
Dixie said:
Ok - let me drop in a dissenting voice. By the way, Zfer001, a warm welcome to this forum. We benefit greatly from having players ask questions that bug them - and we hope you benefit from the answers.

So to all those refs who agreed with Zfer's skipper, let me remind them he was a #9 - and therefore a troublemaker :wink:. Zfer's scenario was: counter-rucker gets a foot over the ball (so ball is now under him, one foot ahead of, one behind, the ball). That player then picks up the ball.

No-one has yet addressed or considered the possibility that the counter rucker unbound fully. Agreed that if he retains a bind, he's handling in the ruck. But if he has unbound fully from the ruck, the ball is now behind and out of whatever remains of the ruck. Like a #8 unbinding from a scrum, it seems to me he should then be able to pick'n'go.
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hmmnn, interesting .... so, you're saying that the only reason the ball remains within the ruck is because he's bound & it's within his feet positions , & should he then unbind [aka leave the ruck vountarilly-which he is allowed to do ] then the offside line now becomes in front of him , then the ball becomes free by these actions also.

In practice i'm not sure how likely or probably, but i take your point, interesting.
 
20.10 Ending the scrum
(a) The ball comes out. When the ball comes out of the scrum in any direction except the tunnel, the scrum ends.

(b) Scrum in the in-goal. A scrum cannot take place in the in-goal. When the ball in a scrum is on or over the goal line, the scrum ends and an attacker or a defender may legally ground the ball for a try or a touch down.
(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball, the scrum ends.
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16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.
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You will see that a ruck is successfully completed much as a scrum is - ball out, or over goal-line.

Except that Scrum Law allows an extra way that it may be completed - one which does not appear in Ruck Law, viz: hindmost player unbinding.

So it seems that lacking the explicit ability as per a scrum, then a ruck would NOT be ended in that way.


Probably.
 
I think that is there because otherwise at a scrum you would have to retreat 5m.

There is no 5m rule for rucks

Camquin
 
Camquin said:
I think that is there because otherwise at a scrum you would have to retreat 5m.

There is no 5m rule for rucks

Camquin
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At a scrum all eight players have to remain bound until the scrum is over, so the #8 pick-up has to be in the Laws as an exception.
 
Davet said:
You will see that a ruck is successfully completed much as a scrum is - ball out, or over goal-line.

Except that Scrum Law allows an extra way that it may be completed - one which does not appear in Ruck Law, viz: hindmost player unbinding.

So it seems that lacking the explicit ability as per a scrum, then a ruck would NOT be ended in that way.


Probably.
Click to expand...

Fair observation, but scrums and rucks have accepted differences & this seems to be one. [example.. ruck = ball on floor before bind commences, scrum = ball appears after bind commences ] so IMO reference to scrum law isn't appropriate.

16.5[c] in permitting re-joining, permits un-joining - implied and expected, there is no requirement for all un-joiners to re-join, they are currently free in law to remain un-joined. Once they've un-joined the only requirement is to be onside, & any onside player may play the ball that is no longer within a ruck.

If you PK'd that player, what Law breach would you use? you wouldnt say he's pinged for unjoining would you?

Or... propose a mirroring of the effect of 20.10[c] into ruck law to the IRB?
 
Womble said:
Many years ago, was a ruck not known as a loose scrum!? History may be your answer chaps.....
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A loose scrum first gets mentioned in the Laws in 1905. Separate Laws for ruck and maul appeared during the 1960s (not quite sure when).

However I doubt if the parallel is much help since the scrum law was very different in the past.
 
16.5[c] in permitting re-joining, permits un-joining - implied and expected, there is no requirement for all un-joiners to re-join, they are currently free in law to remain un-joined. Once they've un-joined the only requirement is to be onside, & any onside player may play the ball that is no longer within a ruck.

If you PK'd that player, what Law breach would you use? you wouldnt say he's pinged for unjoining would you?
Click to expand...

OK - so hindmost player in ruck unbinds with the ball at his feet = ruck is now ended as the ball has emerged from the ruck?

I can live with that, I suppose.

Though is it affected by the principle that withdrawing from a ruck doesn't mean the ruck is over?
 
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