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Crusader vs Reds

O

Old Pig

New member
In fridays Super Rugby Reds vs Crusaders match, crusaders (white) are takled close to the reds line wher a ruck forms.
The crusaders scrum half (21) burrows in to retrieve the ball. He then picks it up and places over the try line without clearing the ball from the ruck.
Video in the link below.
I’m thinking this is either obstruction or hands in the ruck?? Tell me what you think.

 
I'm not a fan of it. I think the laws allow leeway for the SH to use hands but only for the purpose of clearing the ball
 
shrug.

"We" allow s/hs to dig into rucks to get a ball.

He never removed the ball from the ruck to then put it back inside the ruck.

Once the ball is over the line its not longer in a ruck - there is is no ruck in the in-goal.

It was only a matter of time before this happened and i'm quite surprised in retrospect its taken as long as this

We might not like it, but it all seems legal to me. If only because that allowance to dig for the ball is not stipulated in law, its just a general convention. The general convention makes sense for the flow of the game (though we are now back to why the digging is necessary - because of the flopped bodies etc etc etc, cause and effect etc).

Its no more hands in ruck than digging for the ball in the first place - which as above is permitted by convention.
 
He has picked the ball up, so the ruck is over.
Commentator "there's nothing the reds can do to prevent that"....yes there is, don't let them get that close to your line.
 
Phil E said:
He has picked the ball up, so the ruck is over.
Commentator "there's nothing the reds can do to prevent that"....yes there is, don't let them get that close to your line.
Click to expand...
well... he hasnt cleared the ruck with the ball so its a moot point that the ruck is over - but this is semantics now and not connected with this try.specifically. Cos if picking the ball up but not clearing the ruck is ball out the SH can be collared by an (onside!) aware oppenent before (s)he has had chance to normally play it away.

But - semantics as i say. and not specifically relevant here.
 
I'm more leaning towards 'obstruction'. If there is sufficient argument to say he lifted the ball and ruck is over then I think there is sufficient argument that the ball carrier "ran" into an offside player to obstruct the oppo. Law 9.5. It was material and deliberate. PK.

(I wonder if RA will ask for a law clarification before the world cup??)
 
Phil E said:
Commentator "there's nothing the reds can do to prevent that"....yes there is, don't let them get that close to your line.
Click to expand...
I don't buy that line of reasoning cos that argument can be applied to any event close to the goal line
 
menace said:
I'm more leaning towards 'obstruction'. If there is sufficient argument to say he lifted the ball and ruck is over then I think there is sufficient argument that the ball carrier "ran" into an offside player to obstruct the oppo. Law 9.5. It was material and deliberate. PK.

(I wonder if RA will ask for a law clarification before the world cup??)
Click to expand...
but isnt the point here that as the ball wasnt lifted clear of the ruck, the ruck isnt over?

Otherwise the SH could be clobbered as soon as the ball is lifted limiting the chances of actually playing it away (normally) ? Which is NOT what is generally viewed as a "good thing" ?
 
secondary, wider, query:

ruck in progress, ball an inch form the line inside the ruck. Miraculously p;layers still on their feet bound to the ruck.

attacking player nudges ball forwards with his foot until ball is on the line, then reaches down (while still bound) and touches down?
try and handling in the ruck? Given the ball is now in goal - is the ruck now not in existence as its now "in goal" ?

???

didds
 
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didds said:
secondary, wider, query:

ruck in progress, ball an inch form the line inside the ruck. KMiracxulously p;layers still on their feet bound to the ruck.

attacking player nudges ball forwards with his foot until ball is on the line, then reaches down (while still bound) and touches down?
try and handling in the ruck? Given the ball is now in goal - is the ruck now not in existence as its now "in goal" ?

???

didds
Click to expand...
I'd be OK with that. Akin to a push over try
 
Dickie E said:
I'd be OK with that. Akin to a push over try
Click to expand...
that's a good analogy Dickie.


So the clear other analogy then is what is the difference between a bound in player nudging and scoring, and a s/h digging in and scoring - conceptually at least ?
 
didds said:
that's a good analogy Dickie.


So the clear other analogy then is what is the difference between a bound in player nudging and scoring, and a s/h digging in and scoring - conceptually at least ?
Click to expand...
a SH is given some licence to stick his hands in the ruck (technically illegal) for the purpose of clearing the ball and keeping the game moving. It is a step too far for him to then ground the ball for a try
 
Dickie E said:
a SH is given some licence to stick his hands in the ruck (technically illegal) for the purpose of clearing the ball and keeping the game moving. It is a step too far for him to then ground the ball for a try
Click to expand...
and so... law reference?

That's the rub innit?


put another way - I am swayed both ways over this. But TBH this WILL happen and be awarded SOMETIMES (especially now there is a high enough precedent occurring) under current practices.
 
didds said:
and so... law reference?

That's the rub innit?


put another way - I am swayed both ways over this. But TBH this WILL happen and be awarded SOMETIMES (especially now there is a high enough precedent occurring) under current practices.
Click to expand...


[LAWS=]
Ending a ruck
15.17 When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played, the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within five seconds. Sanction: Scrum.

15.18 The ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line.
[/LAWS]

Law 15.17 tells us that the scrum half must play the ball away from the ruck. This example does not comply with law 15.17.

Does this example comply with law 15.18? Is the ball considered out when the SH lifts the ball?

Are 17 and 18 separate or to be considered together, in which case the ball must leave the ruck AND must be played away from the ruck?

"When the ball has been clearly won by a team at the ruck, and is available to be played, the referee calls “use it”, after which the ball must be played away from the ruck within five seconds; subsequently the ruck ends and play continues when the ball leaves the ruck or when the ball in the ruck is on or over the goal line."
 
15.18 covers that - cheers Stu
and what if in the OP the sh didnt lift the ball but merely grasped it, still on the ground, and slid it forwards ointo the line whilst mainataining a grip on it the entire time?

I appreciate this is getting chopperesque but that's exactly what Id be telling my players to do IF a ruling was made that lifting to then score in the OP manner was wrong.
 
didds said:
15.18 covers that - cheers Stu
and what if in the OP the sh didnt lift the ball but merely grasped it, still on the ground, and slid it forwards ointo the line whilst mainataining a grip on it the entire time?

I appreciate this is getting chopperesque but that's exactly what Id be telling my players to do IF a ruling was made that lifting to then score in the OP manner was wrong.
Click to expand...
If you are not clearing the ball from the ruck then you are handling in the ruck
 
didds said:
that's a good analogy Dickie.


So the clear other analogy then is what is the difference between a bound in player nudging and scoring, and a s/h digging in and scoring - conceptually at least ?
Click to expand...
In this scenario you have a player on his feet playing the ball with a foot. This is allowed in a ruck. Once the ball gets to the try line the ruck is over, therefore he can put his hand on the ball - try.

Hmmm... what about combining these scenarios... what if the scrum half puts a foot into the ruck, rolls the ball forward with his foot and then touches the ball down on the try line? I assume he must be bound, therefore this is simply the scenario in post #11?
 
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