Can the kicker at a conversion kick change the type of kick they take?

[jdeagro]

This is getting silly. The laws says nominate a kick at goal then you must kick at goal. Nor restiction of changing the type of kick But passing to a a team matee in a better position? Come off it. He still needs to kick fro mthe mark. Let's not be silly.

From the mark, means in line with it. But you're always allowed to choose how far back or close (forward) to the goal you are when you take a conversion kick.

I agree these ideas are silly, though not explicitly illegal, so I wonder what everyone's thoughts on them are, which leads me to my endgame question:

My endgame question I've been building up to is, at what point do we consider the conversion kick off / no longer allowed? A simple example is if the defending runners beat the kicker to the ball and pick it up off the tee, then I guess it's done with. (I thought I read this in law somewhere but I can't recall where.) But what if the kicker is drop-kicking the conversion?...and the runners run up and take the ball from his hands?...attempt to take it but can't because he still is holding on?...tackles the kicker? Which of these scenarios would stop the conversion from being allowed, and perhaps which wouldn't even be legal for the defenders to attempt? What responses does the kicker have to keep the conversion attempt alive (such as the previously mentioned example scenarios)?

 

[Volun-selected]

My endgame question I've been building up to is, at what point do we consider the conversion kick off / no longer allowed?

As soon as you consider the defenders to have legally prevented the kick?

8.8b has:
[LAWS=]The kicker … Takes the kick in the field of play on a line through the place where the try was awarded, parallel to the touchlines. [/LAWS]
So once a defender is blocking them or grabs the ball it’s over for me.

8.11 has:
[LAWS=]If the ball falls over after the kicker begins the approach to kick, the kicker may then kick or attempt a dropped goal.[/LAWS]

For me this means that the kicker has to take the conversion from where they’ve indicated they want to kick from or put the tee. If it falls over after they started the kick they get one chance to drop kick from the where the ball is (if not rolled into touch). If they pick it up and try to side step the charge, the conversion is over (again, my interpretation).

 

[Volun-selected]

However, reading this through again I’ve spotted something that I’d like an opinion on.

For 15s the kicker has 4 obligations under 8.8 for a conversion:[LAWS=]
8 The kicker:

a. Uses the ball that was in play unless it is defective.​

b. Takes the kick in the field of play on a line through the place where the try was awarded, parallel to the touchlines.​

c. Places the ball directly on the ground or on sand, sawdust, or a kicking tee. The kicker may be assisted by a placer. Nothing else may be used to assist the kicker.​

d. Takes the kick within 90 seconds (playing time) from the time the try was awarded, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again.​

Sanction: Kick is disallowed[/LAWS]
My emphasis.

7s which only allows a place kick for conversion doesn’t have (c) above and has it struck out.

Does this mean that just like we use the placement of the tee as an indication of where the conversion will be taken from, a player who intends to drop kick a conversion should first place the ball on the ground to declare where they intend to kick from? I’ve always just let them get on with it as long as they’re generally in line with where the try was awarded. (And I expect I’ll continue to do just that - just wondering if this is another unintended consequence of the law simplifications.)

 

[jdeagro]

So once a defender is blocking them or grabs the ball it’s over for me.

Grabs the ball out of their hands?...or lightly caresses it with their pinky? A whole gradient of options in-between.

 

[didds]

Specifically for free kicks, where kicking for points isn't an option. So it is possible, and I'm hoping to use it in one of my games as player soon lol.

so in what example would you see a player place kick a free kick? In normal (forget the subterfuge) scenarios?
you cant place kick to touch, so that leaves distance and chase or a bomb and chase... or a tap and run. which of those might feasibly be a place kick sufficient reason for the oppo to be accepting of it and be drawn in ?

 

[didds]

can a drop kicking conversion taker actually be tackled? is the ball actually "live" at a conversion?

 

[smeagol]

can a drop kicking conversion taker actually be tackled? is the ball actually "live" at a conversion?

My inclination is to say “play the ball, not the player”

 

[jdeagro]

so in what example would you see a player place kick a free kick?

When your goal is to clear the distance when you're deep in your own half, such as off a mark call within the 22m. Might make more sense to go for distance, which could result in a counter-punt back to you not as deep, instead of not using the tee and punting a much shorter distance touch kick for a lineout. Especially if your punt game isn't great and / or if you have no shot at winning the defensive lineout. The former is my team's case, where I an aging prop, can punt the ball the furthest, which is 40m in the air at best.

Might even be more conducive of an option with the new 22m off kick-off law being pushed down from World Rugby. My team's strategy is to kick away anything within the 22m off kick-off.

 

[jdeagro]

can a drop kicking conversion taker actually be tackled? is the ball actually "live" at a conversion?

My thoughts is there might be increased danger to allow the tackle to happen when the kicker isn't expecting any chance of being tackled, and therefore won't be in good form to take a hit. So I'm not sure if I'd allow it, today. But that's based on the premise that it's not the standard that the kicker at a conversion kick can be tackled. If it ever became socially common in the game where the kickers knew to expect it, then I'd change my stance on it. I understand that presents a sort-of chicken or the egg quandary.

 

[jdeagro]

is the ball actually "live" at a conversion?

I was wondering this just generally speaking too. Is the ball considered dead immediately following a try? Is it live during the conversion and at what point does it become live then?...when the kicker begins their approach?

 

[didds]

My inclination is to say “play the ball, not the player”

but that the point isnt it - if the conversion kicker has the ball in their hands thats just messy

 

[didds]

My thoughts is there might be increased danger to allow the tackle to happen when the kicker isn't expecting any chance of being tackled, and therefore won't be in good form to take a hit. So I'm not sure if I'd allow it, today. But that's based on the premise that it's not the standard that the kicker at a conversion kick can be tackled. If it ever became socially common in the game where the kickers knew to expect it, then I'd change my stance on it. I understand that presents a sort-of chicken or the egg quandary.

So what CAN the defender do IF the kicker has the ball in his hands for a DK ?

 

[Volun-selected]

Grabs the ball out of their hands?...or lightly caresses it with their pinky? A whole gradient of options in-between.

Judgement call, I think. Once I think the defender is in enough of a position to stop a kick let’s just call it failed and get on with the game.

So what CAN the defender do IF the kicker has the ball in his hands for a DK ?

This got me thinking about the kicker stood there like a rabbit in the headlights. Are the defenders going to just get in their way, grab the ball, or even tackle the kicker holding the ball.

I think they can do the first 2, I don’t believe they can tackle.

Going back to scoring, 8.14 has:[LAWS=]All players retire to their goal line and do not overstep that line until the kicker moves in any direction to begin their approach to kick. When the kicker does this, they may charge or jump to prevent a goal but must not be physically supported by other players in these actions.
[/LAWS] What stands out now is “When the kicker does this, [defenders] may charge or jump to prevent a goal...”

Can charge or jump - no mention they can hold, push, or tackle the player. It doesn’t state they can or cannot play the ball but I’m going to allow that but would call the attempt over before any tussles begin. You faf about long enough that a defender is now stood in front of you, the opportunity is past and you are done. I’d just want to get on with the game.

Interested if others would agree.

 

[jdeagro]

It doesn’t state they can or cannot play the ball but I’m going to allow that but would call the attempt over before any tussles begin. You faf about long enough that a defender is now stood in front of you, the opportunity is past and you are done. I’d just want to get on with the game.

Interested if others would agree.

That's kinda where I'm at too. And of course time will expire at some point (though 60 seconds is a long time still). But I think from a management perspective you should just call it off early on before too much of a scuffle develops. Conversely, I think the kicker should still be allowed to avoid such a scenario by side stepping and then taking the kick back in line with the mark.