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Bizarre statement

BikingBud said:
But it was more about the "communicate"! Of course communicating and managing are key elements of ensuring effective control of the game, a better choice of words that we frequently see is "I didn't see it that way" there is no scope for discussion as you refer back to 6.5.a
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Yes: Communication is important where opinion is so subjective. We call the ball out because it is hard to tell. Let us continue to communicate BUT keep it simple. Single "key words" for the big boys more coaching as you get younger etc.

The big caveat - Be consistent!
 
The problem is that at real speed it is too fast for the Ref to communicate, but put it on the big screen and slow it down and now it is clear and obvious that the ball carrier has a knee down. So every TV channel will show that and the armchair referees will say the ref got it wrong. Daamned if you do and damned if you don't
 
Dickie E said:
I don't know what "registering a C&O offence" means
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A referee sees an incident and it registers in his brain as either legal or illegal. He then decides if it is C&O or not. So in the described situation I'm not seeing (registering) in my brain that the offence is C&O.So I'm either shouting Tackle and letting it breathe to see if the "tackler" releases. Or playing on.
 
So having seen this scenario on a number of occasions you get to know if the ball carrier is 'dominating' the contest and getting knee to ground is just a matter of time.
In that situation, is there a preventative call the referee can make to let the tackler know that knee on ground is imminent?
 
Harry said:
The problem is that at real speed it is too fast for the Ref to communicate, but put it on the big screen and slow it down and now it is clear and obvious that the ball carrier has a knee down. So every TV channel will show that and the armchair referees will say the ref got it wrong. Daamned if you do and damned if you don't
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You can only call what you see. In REAL time. If you have a TMO ask him to "take a look" if you want to.
 
Dickie E said:
So having seen this scenario on a number of occasions you get to know if the ball carrier is 'dominating' the contest and getting knee to ground is just a matter of time.
In that situation, is there a preventative call the referee can make to let the tackler know that knee on ground is imminent?
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Like "almost a tackle"? Nope can't see it. I think you have to wait and call tackle. That is what the elite guys do all the time. Why did he change this time?
 
Dickie E said:
So having seen this scenario on a number of occasions you get to know if the ball carrier is 'dominating' the contest and getting knee to ground is just a matter of time.
In that situation, is there a preventative call the referee can make to let the tackler know that knee on ground is imminent?
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well, if such a call was available what is the defender supposed to do with that info? (S)he still doesnt know if a knee IS on the floor or not WHEN it happens.
 
Marc Wakeham said:
But it is not binary.

There is

C&O Legal

Not C&O

C&O Offence

In a split second, where you don't have time to shout tackle before you blow, that is not registering a C&O offence for me.
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If you see a player attempting to rip as the ball carrier is going to ground what is your decision point? The defender is not tackling they are ripping! I feel there is a material difference in actions.

If you see a player attempting to tackle and the ball carrier goes to ground but is not held, there is no tackle!

But the ball is ripped what is your decision point?

If the rip was unsuccessful and the tackle incomplete the attacker gets up and runs again! Its play on, there is no tackle!

But in a clearly very dynamic situation I might let the tackle run to completion, either held and knees firmly planted or fully prone rather than just one knee and first touch leading to all bets are off.

In general I am not a fan of coaching professional players but if you want the players on your side then you have to communicate something, else it's ball still in play. "TACKLE" seems appropriate when either of the two positions above have been reached. If you only get to "TA!" when the ball is ripped good effort by the ripper.
 
Harry said:
The problem is that at real speed it is too fast for the Ref to communicate, but put it on the big screen and slow it down and now it is clear and obvious that the ball carrier has a knee down. So every TV channel will show that and the armchair referees will say the ref got it wrong. Daamned if you do and damned if you don't
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Perhaps too much is now refereed by big screen and in slow motion.

I do tend to like Mr Pearce's outlook, have a side squint and see if he might consider a different outcome whilst still focussing on keeping the game speed up.
 
Dickie E said:
So having seen this scenario on a number of occasions you get to know if the ball carrier is 'dominating' the contest and getting knee to ground is just a matter of time.
In that situation, is there a preventative call the referee can make to let the tackler know that knee on ground is imminent?
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Is the preventative call in this circumstance "maul"
 
At my PMB I say I will try to call it but the speed of events mean it won't always be possible, is that understood? It seems to work. If players are then playing very close to the edge, they are more likely to take responsibility and accept decisions.

But...I don't think we should be saying this at a PMB, it should be a general rugby-wide statement made at (say) the start of the season.

Without hijacking a thread, there are so many things which get said at PMB.s which should be understood and accepted from day one. Easy examples, fly half give the 5's and 10's, that should be accepted as part of their roles. Scrum half, where we want you to take quick penalties, scrum half how to put the ball in, tacklers clear release, front row how to bind / push. The fact that we say so many things makes me think we are sometimes inconsistent.

Would it be possible to have a statement of roles which cover issues like this, it would help players and referees?
 
Until the knee hits the ground it is not a tackle. If it does not meet the conditions for a maul It ain't a maul either. So don't call it as either one. It is a "play-on" situation. Call tackle as soon as the knee hits the deck and player now have to respond. If there is a simultaneous rip and tackle I am playing on.
 
BikingBud said:
If you see a player attempting to rip as the ball carrier is going to ground what is your decision point? The defender is not tackling they are ripping! I feel there is a material difference in actions.

If you see a player attempting to tackle and the ball carrier goes to ground but is not held, there is no tackle!

But the ball is ripped what is your decision point?

If the rip was unsuccessful and the tackle incomplete the attacker gets up and runs again! Its play on, there is no tackle!

But in a clearly very dynamic situation I might let the tackle run to completion, either held and knees firmly planted or fully prone rather than just one knee and first touch leading to all bets are off.

In general I am not a fan of coaching professional players but if you want the players on your side then you have to communicate something, else it's ball still in play. "TACKLE" seems appropriate when either of the two positions above have been reached. If you only get to "TA!" when the ball is ripped good effort by the ripper.
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Line one: Play on until a knee hits the ground and then call Tackle. If the rip is simultaneous play on - Call what you C&O see.
Line two: Play on!
Line three: Play on! What offence has been committed?
Line four: Play on!
 
I should point out that in the OP's case, the ref had already blown his whistle for a knock on by the BC, because the ripped ball bounced free and then hit the (now dispossessed) BC and went forward. It was only during stopped play that the call was changed to PK for the late rip.

I suspect that if the knock forward hadn't been blown up, it would indeed have been play on. But we'll never know.
 
It happens, sometimes I call tackle, the ball is ripped and we play on, sometimes, a millisecond or more passes, and whilst I feel some sympathy, it’s a penalty as tackle has been called, I can’t specifically clarify what that time gap is, it’s just my judgement and hopefully I’m consistent.
 
Blackberry said:
What are the ref's open-play communication calls? Ruck! Tackle! Maul! Any more? As long as coaches teach the players the appropriate actions on hearing these words, it works really well.
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My most important one is "Play on" especially when ball is bobbling around and there may have been a knock on but I haven't seen it.
I usually say after a stoppage when queried. "I'm not Guessing"

My other regular one is e.g. "Stop 14 you're offside" at kick chasers in front. Usually prevents a stoppage as teammates will emphasise my call.
 
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