Another accidental touch down

[crossref]

Marcus Smith, very close to his own tryline, catches an awkward kick , steps back into his in goal and slips and falls. He gets back to his feet and successfully kicks for touch

Lic Ramos first gives the lineout, then after intervention from TMO gives an attacking 5m scrum , because when Marcus slipped the ball touched the ground

To me thats a harsh one. I don't think a slip constitutes taking ball back and touching it down

What do we think ?

 

[Decorily]

Didn't see it.
Sounds to me similar to a player picking up the ball ie not grounded.

 

[Balones]

The difference is that the ball was in MS’s hands and went to ground. In your second scenario the ball was already on the ground. I.E. ball grounded vs ball lifted.

 

[Decorily]

The difference is that the ball was in MS’s hands and went to ground. In your second scenario the ball was already on the ground. I.E. ball grounded vs ball lifted.

Yes but I would be looking at intent in this scenario. I would judge that the intent was not to ground it.

 

[didds]

Yes but I would be looking at intent in this scenario. I would judge that the intent was not to ground it.

if it was a scorer that slipped similarly in the corner in goal, then stood and ran under the posts to then ground the ball, where would you award the try?

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Need to see the video

 

[Decorily]

if it was a scorer that slipped similarly in the corner in goal, then stood and ran under the posts to then ground the ball, where would you award the try?

Haven't seen the video.... but as I've stated I'd be trying to look at intent and therefore probably award the try under the posts in the scenario described.

 

[didds]

and... in the original scenario, if the defender slips as described, then stands but before managing any escape is stripped of the ball by an attacker who then grounds the ball you'd award the try ? And the defenders would just accept that?

I'd suggest you can only give what you actually see at that moment, because it starts to open cans of worms.

 

[Decorily]

I'd suggest you can only give what you actually see at that moment, because it starts to open cans of woworms.

So if a 9 slides a ball back from a ruck in preparation for a clearance kick and in so doing takes the ball onto the try line you are going to blow it up for a 5m scrum??

 

[didds]

So if a 9 slides a ball back from a ruck in preparation for a clearance kick and in so doing takes the ball onto the try line you are going to blow it up for a 5m scrum??

why not if his hand is on the ball when it touches the white line? ie contact with the ground, no pressure required if the ball is being controlled?

 

[Decorily]

why not if his hand is on the ball when it touches the white line? ie contact with the ground, no pressure required if the ball is being controlled?

Well as I see it that's not generally the way it is refereed at any level.

 

[didds]

Well as I see it that's not generally the way it is refereed at any level.

are we talking apples and oranges here?

As in teh difference between

the ball ending up UNHELD in the in-goal then picked up by the crumhalf...

OR

the ball being held when it enters the in-goal.

The fitrst I can see is OK to be picked up otherwise nobody can ever play ita side from some silly shenagins with the feet to flick it up ;-)
The second I'm struggling to differentiate from a touch down in goal in any w3ay otyher than "you'll know it when you see it" which will only ever end up being a controversial call sooner rather than later.

 

[Decorily]

I'm referring to the ball being intentionally taken back into ingoal in preparation for a box kick or pass to another kicker.

 

[didds]

I'm referring to the ball being intentionally taken back into ingoal in preparation for a box kick or pass to another kicker.

so...

does s/h then

have the ball from outside the in goal, pick it and then step in-goal (ball never on ground in-goal)
the ball is free on the ground in goal, and the he picks it up
he is holding the ball in the FoP, on the ground, and is driven into in-goal with the ball on the ground, stands (as ruck is over in-goal) and boxes?

Cos the 1st two are play on
the 3rd is touched down.

IMO.

 

[Decorily]

so...

does s/h then

have the ball from outside the in goal, pick it and then step in-goal (ball never on ground in-goal)
the ball is free on the ground in goal, and the he picks it up
he is holding the ball in the FoP, on the ground, and is driven into in-goal with the ball on the ground, stands (as ruck is over in-goal) and boxes?

Cos the 1st two are play on
the 3rd is touched down.

IMO.

9 puts hands on ball (in ruck) in FOP.
Slides ball along the ground taking it IG to prepare to box kick for clearance.

 

[Volun-selected]

9 puts hands on ball (in ruck) in FOP.
Slides ball along the ground taking it IG to prepare to box kick for clearance.

Isn’t this complicated by the moment the ball in the ruck touches the goal line then the ruck is over? Not really enough time for a box kick, as any switched on attacker should be looking to leap on the ball.

That said, I’d be looking for intent to ground. Take a ruck near the goal line and the ball gets pushed back and the SH has it on the line, or say by a panicked foot pushes it back and now the ball is in-goal. In the first case I’d need to see the SH pick it up and dab it down otherwise it’s still in play. In the second I’d take diving on the ball or a solid slap on it as intent. If they just roll it back and then hold it and an attacker leaps on it then it’s a try.

I’d rather we use positive rather than passive actions to determine intent. If you have possession then do something.

 

[didds]

9 puts hands on ball (in ruck) in FOP.
Slides ball along the ground taking it IG to prepare to box kick for clearance.

gotcha. thats OK. on the absis of collecting the ball at "base of the ruck" etc.

he'd be minded to use his feet top take the ball back maybe... and be aware of predatory oppo once the ball is on/over the line!

 

[Decorily]

Isn’t this complicated by the moment the ball in the ruck touches the goal line then the ruck is over? Not really enough time for a box kick, as any switched on attacker should be looking to leap on the ball.

That said, I’d be looking for intent to ground. Take a ruck near the goal line and the ball gets pushed back and the SH has it on the line, or say by a panicked foot pushes it back and now the ball is in-goal. In the first case I’d need to see the SH pick it up and dab it down otherwise it’s still in play. In the second I’d take diving on the ball or a solid slap on it as intent. If they just roll it back and then hold it and an attacker leaps on it then it’s a try.

I’d rather we use positive rather than passive actions to determine intent. If you have possession then do something.

Absolutely my point that an attacking player could touch the ball and score so therefore the ball has not been made dead by the 9 simply touching the ingoal with the ball.
That is the same logic I'd apply in the scenario described where the ball carrier slipped and 'accidentally' grounded the ball.

 

[didds]

Absolutely my point that an attacking player could touch the ball and score so therefore the ball has not been made dead by the 9 simply touching the ingoal with the ball.
That is the same logic I'd apply in the scenario described where the ball carrier slipped and 'accidentally' grounded the ball.

so how does the 9 make the ball dead/touched down under pressure from a diving attacker in a split second given he can't (as above) just put his hands on it ? pick it up first? in that short time?

 

[didds]

Absolutely my point that an attacking player could touch the ball and score so therefore the ball has not been made dead by the 9 simply touching the ingoal with the ball.
That is the same logic I'd apply in the scenario described where the ball carrier slipped and 'accidentally' grounded the ball.

so how does the 9 make the ball derad/touched down under pressure from a diving attacker in a split second given he cant just put his hands on it (as above) ? pick it up first? in that short time?