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50:22 from a free kick

Dickie E said:
this makes little sense to me. You could just as legitimately have said that you don't have any doubt that it is a try. You can't see what happened ie you can't see the ball being grounded but likewise you can't see the ball not being grounded. If you said to the players that you have no doubt that the ball was held up, you wouldn't be telling the truth
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I am trying to say that you should avoid doubt. In such circumstances I have the mindset that there is no doubt and make a decisive call. Over many years of experience and analysis of such situations I am happy and confident about the decision I would make, which is basically that if the attacking side haven’t clearly grounded so you can award a try then the defence have stopped it.
 
Phil E said:
The law is quite clear on this one isn't it?

If I haven't seen the ball grounded then I cannot give the try. I learnt a long time ago that making stuff up (i.e. what you "think" happened) comes back to bite you on the arse.

I can see the ball is clearly held up so that would be a GLDO. I am assuming the tackler is holding the ball up as well and preventing a grounding, otherwise the ball carrier could just ground it as I got here.

Explain to both Captains I didn't see a grounding, so cannot award the try. Move on.
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Back to the pile up then. So you would only give a scrum if you can't see any of the ball? Ie if you can see that the ball is eventually off the ground but you have no idea what happened leading up to that, you'd go GLDO?
 
Dickie E said:
Back to the pile up then. So you would only give a scrum if you can't see any of the ball? Ie if you can see that the ball is eventually off the ground but you have no idea what happened leading up to that, you'd go GLDO?
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Yes, if I can't see the ball its a scrum on the basis that I don't know if its grounded or held up.
If I can see the ball I will make a decision one way or the other. But I won't guess on what might have happened previously.
 
Dickie E said:
I'd start by asking my AR what he/she saw
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and why not ask your TMO as well ?

If you have any of those, you'll find out what actually happened and there is no dilemma at all.

BUT if it was just you on your own, a long way away ... that's when you have a hard problem to solve.
 
Bath v Saracens. 22.49 on match clock. Pile up over line. Ref blew whistle. Ref didn’t see a grounding - determined a GLDO. Didn’t say held up.
Admittedly due to TMO, then went to penalty for double movement but the point is that the ref ‘doubted’ what had happened (or didn’t know what had happened) and went for GLDO. Out elite referees are told not to have ‘doubt’.
 
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Balones said:
Bath v Saracens. 22.49 on match clock. Pile up over line. Ref blew whistle. Ref didn’t see a grounding - determined a GLDO. Didn’t say held up.
Admittedly due to TMO, then went to penalty for double movement but the point is that the ref ‘doubted’ what had happened (or didn’t know what had happened) and went for GLDO. Out elite referees are told not to have ‘doubt’.
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So I think you're saying:
1. if you have doubt about grounding go for 5m scrum, but
2. to avoid ever having to give 5m scrum, even if you have doubt, make sure you don't have doubt

Correct?
 
Dickie E said:
So I think you're saying:
1. if you have doubt about grounding go for 5m scrum, but
2. to avoid ever having to give 5m scrum, even if you have doubt, make sure you don't have doubt

Correct?
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Nearly. If you have a definite grounding and have doubt over who did it first then it is a scrum. If you can’t see a grounding then have no doubt.:) GLDO.
 
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