Touched in flight

Not Kurt Weaver

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/usa.png">
#21
I did.
He remains offside until an an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks.


and while it's not in the Law: common sense says that he's also made onside once he's on the right side of the ongoing play
The offside loiterer you are talking about is no longer a "loiterer" when his team wins the ruck, maul, LO, or scrum. Loiterers are defined a interfering with opponents play from ruck, maul, LO, or scrum. This once in position to loiter player in now just an offside teammate. Who can be put onside by actions of opponent
 

Not Kurt Weaver

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/usa.png">
#22
11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside l


Crossref, I think you have a good argument, this is an example of the ambiguousity (not a word) of the laws. It is the downfall of law, and yet the jolly of the game. It is so easy to take the game seriously,but it is part of the joy of the game. Nobody really knows WTF they are doing and we ll think we do.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#23
In fact, IIRC, the loitering law was in place before the 10m law.
Loitering first appears in 1979.
What is now the ten metre rule was also introduced as a five yard rule in 1889, being increased to ten yards in 1896.
(RAB Crowe, London Society; The Evolution of the Laws over the Last Century)
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#24
Loitering first appears in 1979.
What is now the ten metre rule was also introduced as a five yard rule in 1889, being increased to ten yards in 1896.
(RAB Crowe, London Society; The Evolution of the Laws over the Last Century)
I stand corrected!
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#25
The offside loiterer you are talking about is no longer a "loiterer" when his team wins the ruck, maul, LO, or scrum. Loiterers are defined a interfering with opponents play from ruck, maul, LO, or scrum. This once in position to loiter player in now just an offside teammate. Who can be put onside by actions of opponent
I wasn't actually talking about loiterers.

Scenario
- ruck, with red #3 miles offside
- red win the ball red #9 box kicks and it's touched in flight by blue (trying to block)
- the ball lands near red #3, can he play it ?

1) IF Red #3 was loitering then it's pretty clear - he can't

11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line


2) IF Red #3 was NOT loitering , then actually i agree the Law isn't clear


11.8 Putting onside a player retiring during a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout

When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player's team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:
Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.
Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onside


the Law talks about what happens when the opposing team win possession, was that deliberate, to mean that it's not meant to apply when his own team wins possession? Or was it accidental as that's the scenario that normally causes a problem?

My feeling is that it's accidental.
But interesting discussion. I am pausing to reflect!
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#26
I suspect here's a case of the 12 year old only having the capacity to consider a loiterer as somebody not making an effort to get onside, hanging around in the 9-10 channel blocking continuation of play. Rather than a player such as red #3 above who then actually catches the ball.

didds
 

Not Kurt Weaver

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/usa.png">
#27
the Law talks about what happens when the opposing team win possession, was that deliberate, to mean that it's not meant to apply when his own team wins possession? Or was it accidental as that's the scenario that normally causes a problem?

My feeling is that it's accidental.
But interesting discussion. I am pausing to reflect!
My feeling is that is deliberately accidental. Placed in law by either, The Club of Rome, illuminati, or the Russians as a rouse to distract us theNew World Order part 2.

I also think we have several Snowden in our midst aiding to the ploy, see below


Was the prop offside from a previous ruck?
Discuss.
Could he have been loitering?
 

Ian_Cook

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/newzealan
#28
No, but he has to make an effort to get back on side. If he's making an effort and the kick is half charged down, no problem, but if he's not making an effort I'll treat that as loitering.
OK, then can you explain this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U8wNPqIdss


► Marland Yarde was clearly 15m+ ahead of the last ruck offside line
► He was making no effort to get himself back onside
► The opposition never touched the ball or had possession of it so no actions of theirs could put him onside
► The play never passed him

I wonder how many rucks Marland Yarde was offside at before he popped up and scored? At least one the we can see in this clip, but probably more.
 
Last edited:

OB..

, Advises in England
#29
OK, then can you explain this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U8wNPqIdss


► Marland Yarde was clearly 30m+ ahead of the last ruck offside line
► He was making no effort to get himself back onside
► The opposition never touched the ball or had possession of it so no actions of theirs could put him onside
The play never passed him

I wonder how many rucks Marland Yarde was offside at before he popped up and scored? At least one the we can see in this clip, but probably more.
Are you claiming the pass to him was forward?
 

Ian_Cook

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/newzealan
#30
Are you claiming the pass to him was forward?

No. How do you glean that from what I said?

(NOTE: In any case, a player who receives a forward pass is not made offside by that act)

11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).
A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
A player can be offside in the in-goal

I'm saying he was offside at the last ruck (his team won the ruck and he was at least 15m ahead of it) and he made no effort to get onside before taking part in play.

If he was offside in general play, then he's fine because, although...

Law 11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(b) Offside and interfering with play. A player who is offside must not take part in the game. This means the player must not play the ball or obstruct an opponent.

...he was made onside by his team-mate, the one who went past him and passed the ball to him.

11.2 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY THE ACTION OF A TEAM-MATE
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by actions of that player or of team mates:
(b) Action by the ball carrier. When a team-mate carrying the ball runs in front of the offside player, that player is put onside.

But he was not offside in General Play, he was offside at the previous ruck...

16.5 OFFSIDE AT THE RUCK
(a) The offside line. There are two offside lines parallel to the goal lines, one for each team.
Each offside line runs through the hindmost foot of the hindmost player in the ruck. If the hindmost foot of the hindmost player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal line.

(d) Players not joining the ruck. If a player is in front of the offside line and does not join the ruck, the player must retire behind the offside line at once. If a player who is behind the offside line oversteps it and does not join the ruck the player is offside.

... so his only remedy was...

11.8 PUTTING ONSIDE A PLAYER RETIRING DURING A RUCK, MAUL,
SCRUM OR LINEOUT
When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required
by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul,
scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable
offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player’s team mates
can put the offside player onside.


NOTE: He wasn't offside under the 10m Law because there was no kick by a teammate.
 

Not Kurt Weaver

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/usa.png">
#34
That is what I am asking.


(I am wondering whether who is in possession at the ruck is relevant to how the ruck offside Law is being applied.)
Possession at ruck is irrelevant, winning possession after the ruck is. Loitering players are not loitering in their teams wins possession. Offside in general play is all that exist.
 

BCH24

Rugby Club Member
#35
Thanks all for your thoughts.

In the original incident, the ref gave a penalty for the prop being offside at the place he caught the ball. He said nothing of loitering. The prop was heading in the right direction, albeit very slowly. When he caught the ball, it was probably accidental as he normally drops it and wouldn't be agile enough to get out of its way.

The general feeling of the few watching was touched in flight so play on.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#36
Loitering players are not loitering if their teams wins possession.
but there's no Law reference for that.

and it does say


11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line
 

Ian_Cook

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/newzealan
#37
- he was put onside by the ball carrier going past him, obviously.

IF he was offside in General Play, then I would agree, but he was 15m ahead of a ruck at which his team was in possession. This makes him offside under Law 11.8, and, as you said earlier "he's not onside until an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks"


Now, if he actually WAS offside in General Play at the time he received the pass, then when and how did he become no longer offside at the ruck. As far as I can see, none of the remedial provisions under Law 11.8 took place.
 
Last edited:

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#38
IF he was offside in General Play, then I would agree, but he was 15m ahead of a ruck at which his team was in possession. This makes him offside under Law 11.8, and, as you said earlier "he's not onside until an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks"


Now, if he actually WAS offside in General Play at the time he received the pass, then when and how did he become no longer offside at the ruck. As far as I can see, none of the remedial provisions under Law 11.8 took place.
which is what I said in #20

and while it's not in the Law: common sense says that he's also made onside once he's on the right side of the ongoing play

So - it's your turn - how do you think Yarde got onside?
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#39
Ian - you said "The play never passed him", but unless the pass was forward, then it must have done.
You are actually arguing that this fact is irrelevant.

"A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside." Not from the pass, of course, but as you say he might be offside for some other reason.

I understand the general thinking that it is unfair for a "dead" player to suddenly come to life in such a convenient fashion. The law does not really tackle the matter of a player who is initially unable to retire, but then recovers. I wonder if panel referees have an agreement on such things? They certainly need one.