RWC Aus vs Sco

Ian_Cook

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I hope CJ is not "sacked" after this. I would understand if he walked way after some of the stuff that has been written about him. He is a tidy ref who made an error.

It was a critical error because it led to the final score which changed the result. He will, of course, had a "difficult" reveiw. However, in real time it was not C & O that he was wrong with a number of people saying that it took several replays for them to be sure. So I hope there is proper reflection by CJ AND WR.

WR must reflect on the protocols for TMOs etc. Therein lies the bigger problem than the CJ's error.
If you look at the video from the elevated halfway camera, its easy to see that he is badly positioned to see Phipps knock/touch the ball, which is probably why he didn't see it.

(For clarity, I am NOT implying that CJ's positioning was bad or wrong, only that it wasn't good for being able to see this particular occurance. There is no place you can stand where you can see everything).
 

Ian_Cook

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So some people are saying he couldn't avoid touching the ball?
That is just not true. He played at the ball fully intending to take possession.
I agree, but from his position, he would have seen the ball knocked back by Phipps, so he (correctly as it tuirns out now) thought he was OK to play it.
 

B52 REF

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i think it is public that joubs was always going to join the hsbc 7s circuit after this tourney (with a view to being an olympian next year ) so no question of sacking , just a crying shame that one of our best refs didn't get to bow out with a RWC SF.
 

davidlandy

Rugby Club Member
If that was Scotland's 1st try, the decision to play on was absolutely correct and the try was good.
There was no ruck. It was a tackle situation only.
As I said in an earlier post, the player who picked the ball up would have had to be in front of the tackled team mate for there to be a problem.
Could you please explain - what was it that made it a tackle situation and not a ruck? (Sorry if this is a stupid question!)
 

The Fat

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Not sure you can comment on his intent, especially if you believe Barnes' assertion that it landed "in his lap"
The ball comes to him. He fumbles the ball and then has a 2nd grab to try to get possession.
CJ had no option, believing that the last player to play the ball before Welsh was a team mate, than to award the PK.

Which Barnes are we talking about? Stuart or Wayne?
 

Paule23

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Well, after watching the game and reading through lots of 'analysis' and comment, my view is he gave it correctly, based on what he saw.

He saw a knock on from blue, pick up by a blue player in front, therefore offside and a penalty offence.

The beauty of hindsight (and multiple replays from every angle) is we now know someone else played the ball, but at realtime, with one view, he made the call as he saw it and should be commended for actually making that call rather than copping out.

There are numerous times in a gena referee will make aid take or his call can be open to interpretation, it it unfortunate this particular call turned out to be wrong and had such a large impact, but many 'wrong' calls earlier in the matchay have changed the score, we will never know.

A good referee made an understandable mistake. What would everyone have expected him to do given what he saw? A scrum would be a cop out (never mind his previous decision/error in a similar situation), no decision and play on would have been even worse, so he made the right call on what he saw. Well done CJ.
 

crossref

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Not sure you can comment on his intent, especially if you believe Barnes' assertion that it landed "in his lap"
If a player is in front of a knock on, can see the ball coming, knows he is offside, but just can't avoid the ball hitting him ... then that's exactly the scenario where you call accidental, scrum (or possibly even play-on, if not material contact).

It's easy to spot, you can see the player making instinctive attempt to dodge, or shying away from ball so that it hits his body, not his hands. It's not that uncommon, but I don't think that's what we saw in this instance. IMO He def played it.
Of course he may well have seen it come off an Aussie and so knew that he was entitled to.
 
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The Fat

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Could you please explain - what was it that made it a tackle situation and not a ruck? (Sorry if this is a stupid question!)
No Australian players engaged any Scotland player over the ball after the tackle. There are two Australian tacklers on the ground and all of the other gold defenders hold off and set their defensive line (except for one critical point) believing the scrum half was going to pick the ball up.
 

The Fat

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If a player is in front of a knock on, can see the ball coming, knows he is onside (should read offside), but just can't avoid the ball hitting him ... then that's exactly the scenario where you call accidental, scrum (or possibly even play-on, if not material contact).

It's easy to spot, you can see the player making instinctive attempt to dodge, or shying away from ball so that it hits his body, not his hands. It's not that uncommon, but I don't think that's what we saw in this instance. IMO He def played it.
Of course he may well have seen it come off an Aussie and so knew that he was entitled to.
FTFY.
 

Darryl Godden

Rugby Club Member
I agree with most comments on this page, it's a stretch to say it accidental off-side, if he did see Phipps flap it back then he's at odds with CJ.

@The Fat - Stuart Barnes

The greater problem is the utter absence of empathy on the part of Joubert. Let's say that Josh Strauss was the last player to touch the ball as it ricocheted forward into the nearby arms of Jon Welsh. A few years ago the decision would have been immediate and non-controversial; accidental offside and a scrum to Australia.
http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/10034880/stuart-barnes-on-world-cup-quarter-finals-and-craig-joubert-controversy

I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's an argument.
 

davidlandy

Rugby Club Member
Thanks for the full explanation, menace :smile:

No genuine referee goes out there wanting to affect the score or result. It's not in our psyche. This applies to decisions and non-decisions I make.
Accepted, absolutely.

CJs error is what is called a 'critical incident' - as it was a decision that lead to a change in score and it dictated the result.
OK thanks, good explanation.

Things changed when there were multiple slo mos at every angle. CJ had one look from one angle. He did his job. It's unfortunate it was an error.
That's it exactly, in a nutshell.

Now why shouldn't the rules be changed to allow the ref call in the TMO for any "critical incident" - in his/her exclusive judgement? (I think that's what everyone's been saying here for a while...) After all the whole point of reviewing tries and foul play is that they are critical to the game... so why not allow review of critical decisions, for example in the final few minutes of a close match, too?

In the NHL they've just started trialling a system of "coaches challenge", it has to be done in the team's timeout (so only one per game), and it has to be for a limited set of circumstances. Not sure I'd agree with this for rugby but at least it'd be something, to try and get the right call made when everyone can see (on the replays) that the ref's made an obvious boo-boo. Yes, it removes their autonomy, but it also saves them looking like a complete twit.

And of course, we don't have timeouts in rugby... we just have props occasionally down for the odd minute or two for an unspecified "injury", just coincidentally when the entire pack is exhausted :wink:
 

crossref

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I agree.

From the feedback here, I have gone off the idea of captain's challenge, I don't think it fits the rugby ethos.

But I think both the TMO and the ref should have the power to order an exceptional review, if either suspects there is a possibility that a critical incident is unfolding.

that would have avoided the the whole incident. CJ could have said 'we'll go upstairs' OR, CJ having given the PK the TMO could have come on and said 'hold it CJ, let's take a closer look at that'

There aren't very many critical incidents, I don't think this would vastly increase the nuimber of TMO reviews, and we'd have better outcomes.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
If you look at the video from the elevated halfway camera, its easy to see that he is badly positioned to see Phipps knock/touch the ball, which is probably why he didn't see it.

(For clarity, I am NOT implying that CJ's positioning was bad or wrong, only that it wasn't good for being able to see this particular occurance. There is no place you can stand where you can see everything).
Indeed you are correct.
 

menace

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Sometimes you don't know it's a critical incident until well after you've moved on (especially when it's a non-decision that could be critical). So the issue I see is deciding when or not to 'review' the incident. Where do you draw the line? And who decides?

I'm open to good suggestions to catch clangers - but I've not seen any good suggestions yet. What is currently in place I think is pretty good as it's about foul play and when a try scoring situations. Do we really want a situation where every single score is checked and double checked??

I for one would hate to see the game bogged down in reviews. (I hate NRL cause they review every single try scored cause they're to scared to make a call). We might be getting to a situation where the referee is not on the field but sitting in the media truck watching a screen!?
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
Spot on! you call it in good faith and only later it emerges you were "wrong". If the TMO could intervene that would possibly help. But please no kneejerk reactions. I hope WR take time to get it right this time.
 

crossref

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we have trial a few different ideas, and find some solution that doesn't lead to endless replays but would have allowed CJ to take a look on Sunday.

I'd start out with referee/TMO discretion, see how that goes.
 

Dixie

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I agree with most comments on this page, it's a stretch to say it accidental off-side, if he did see Phipps flap it back then he's at odds with CJ.

@The Fat - Stuart Barnes

The greater problem is the utter absence of empathy on the part of Joubert. Let's say that Josh Strauss was the last player to touch the ball as it ricocheted forward into the nearby arms of Jon Welsh. A few years ago the decision would have been immediate and non-controversial; accidental offside and a scrum to Australia.
http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12321/10034880/stuart-barnes-on-world-cup-quarter-finals-and-craig-joubert-controversy

I'm not saying I agree with it, but it's an argument.
It's a crock of shite. Barnes does himself no favours on too many occasions - the inevitable downside of being the go-to strong opinion on any matter. The law actually says:

11.7 OFFSIDE AFTER A KNOCK-ON
When a player knocks-on and an offside team-mate next plays the ball, the offside player is liable to sanction if playing the ball prevented an opponent from gaining an advantage.
Sanction: Penalty kick


The sanction is a penalty kick. I think Ian has made the point several pages back that you can't use 11.6 to award a scrum for accidental offside, as this option does not exist under the more specific 11.7 - but even if you wanted to, you would be saying that you can't expect a pro player playing a RWC quarter final to be able to get his mind in gear quickly and realise he mustn't play the ball. If you don't expect that level of skill from such an elite elite player, then what on Earth is the offence doing in the law book?
 

menace

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we have trial a few different ideas, and find some solution that doesn't lead to endless replays but would have allowed CJ to take a look on Sunday.

I'd start out with referee/TMO discretion, see how that goes.

Admiral thoughts, but you can't have 'discretion' for when you can and won't intervene. I think that would create more headlines!

I for one was getting frustrated with George Ayoub constantly jumping in the other day and stopping for a 'check check' when he really didn't need to.