[RBS 6 Nations] Bonus point trial in 2017

Bonus point, what do you think?


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#2
*shrug*

whatever.

Do 6N sides really not try to score tries until the final second? Unless 30 points ahead so just kick it off the park?

And what about the fans that actually now want to get to the pub instead of watching another 8 minutes of wide trench defense until somebody knocks on?



didds

- - - Updated - - -

you need a 3rd option

* I don't GAF

didds
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#3
Since Italy joined, there have been 153 home wins, 98 away wins, and 5 draws. The 6N is not a home-and-away competition, so each season there is a built-in advantage already, which would be increased by bonus points.

It is essential that whatever system is used does not allow a Grand Slam winner to be beaten by their closest rival because of bonus points. In 2002 France won all 5 games (10 points) plus 1 try bonus for 11 points. England won 4 games (8 points) plus a losing bonus against France and 4 try bonuses from the other matches: total 13 points.

The current points difference system is an incentive to beat Italy (usually seen as the weakest team) by as many as possible.

There is a reasonable case for using bonus points as a tie-breaker.

The main argument for bonus points is that it provides an incentive to a losing team, who might manage to salvage a point. A try bonus merely rewards a team who dominance is already represented in the number of points scored. (The occasional try fest might give both sides a try bonus - 4 times in 255 matches so far)
 

Ian_Cook

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/newzealan
#4
Six times in in the 17 seasons since Italy joined, teams that won the 6N did so by points difference, that is just over 1/3 of the time

First team listed won 6N - next team(s) listed finished on the same table points

2001 - England - Ireland
2006 - France - Ireland
2007 - France - Ireland *
2013 - Wales - England
2014 - Ireland - England
2015 - Ireland - England - Wales

* In 2007 the result might have changed. Ireland would have got two try bonus points and one close loss bonus point to France's single try bonus point and one close loss bonus point, so Ireland would probably have won the 6N in that year.

I say "might" and "probably" because you cant just go back and add bonus points to rework results after the fact. Knowing that bonus points were needed, teams might have played differently, e.g. kicking for the corner late in the game rather than taking an easy three.
 

Rushforth

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/holland.p
#5
IIRC there is a fudge factor for achieving the GS - oh it can be found at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Six_Nations_Championship "Additionally, to ensure that a team winning all of its five matches (a Grand Slam) will also win the Championship, three bonus points will be awarded for this achievement.[1][2]"


Three bonus points suffices because 5*4+3 > 4*5+2, where the two is the maximum number of points (for both bonuses) that a losing side can achieve.
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#7
I don't see what problem bonus points would solve.

Yes, you get the odd boring match (e.g. Wales v France last year), but I'm not sure bonus points would improve that - and the year before you have Wales v Ireland: hugely exciting with one try and one penalty try.

And look back to 'Super Saturday' two years ago. No bonus points, but so many tries scored it was farcical!

Sure, England won with a round to spare last year, but that was down to Wales and Ireland drawing, and they'd still have won with a round to spare even with bonus points.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#8
Three bonus points suffices because 5*4+3 > 4*5+2, where the two is the maximum number of points (for both bonuses) that a losing side can achieve.
Using the intended system, if a team wins a Grand Slam without getting any try bonuses, they will get 20 points plus the GS bonus = 23. The second team could get 4 * 4 points = 16, plus 5 try bonuses and one losing bonus =22. Hence the need for a 3 point GS bonus.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#9
Using the intended system, if a team wins a Grand Slam without getting any try bonuses, they will get 20 points plus the GS bonus = 23. The second team could get 4 * 4 points = 16, plus 5 try bonuses and one losing bonus =22. Hence the need for a 3 point GS bonus.
In a non GS year you could have team A win 4 games with no bonuses = 16 points. Another team winning 3 games and losing 2 of them could however pick up 3 try bonuses and 2 losing bonuses = 3*4 = 12 + 5 = 17.

Did I understand that right? So it would be possible for a team winning only 3 matches to win the 6N and beating a team that won 4 matches ?

didds
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#10
In a non GS year you could have team A win 4 games with no bonuses = 16 points. Another team winning 3 games and losing 2 of them could however pick up 3 try bonuses and 2 losing bonuses = 3*4 = 12 + 5 = 17.

Did I understand that right? So it would be possible for a team winning only 3 matches to win the 6N and beating a team that won 4 matches ?

didds
Yep, that's my understanding, too.

There might be benefit in using them as a tie breaker (as OB suggests), but it can result in 'interesting' outcomes if used as stated.

What you don't really want is a team losing on the last weekend, but still winning the trophy, and bonus points will make this more likely.

E.g. if Ireland need to score four tries and beat England by more than 7 on the last weekend (and stop England scoring 4 tries, not a terribly unlikely situation) and they win comfortably, but only score three tries, who's going to be satisfied with the results?

I realise you can get this situation at the moment, but the only factor is points difference. When you add in other ways for the loser to win the competition, you increase the likelihood of it happening.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#11
I have a vague recollection of something odd like this in the first year of bonus points in competiton in the UK, being the Welsh premier league as was based around club sides; my vague recollection from 20 years ago was that the team that finished second had won more games than the team that came first. Googling however suggests this was 1996/97, won by pontypridd but the team that came second was way below them in terms of games won so I'm not sure what I am recollecting now!

didds
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#12
I have a vague recollection of something odd like this in the first year of bonus points in competiton in the UK, being the Welsh premier league as was based around club sides; my vague recollection from 20 years ago was that the team that finished second had won more games than the team that came first. Googling however suggests this was 1996/97, won by pontypridd but the team that came second was way below them in terms of games won so I'm not sure what I am recollecting now!

didds
IIRC the Welsh premiership didn't introduce bonus points before regional rugby took over, but it's certainly happened in the English premiership. Less of an impact when you have end of season playoffs, though (which I'm also not a fan of).

Perhaps the points should be re-jigged so you get 8 for a win, so bonus points would likely only come into question in the event of a tie.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#13
Yep, that's my understanding, too.

.

Hmmm... so do we think the average supporter would accept that situation I described above in #9?

Cos I don't!

I remember the fallout of Wasps winning the English title from finishing in IIRC 6th place in the table and Glaws missing out having finished top of the log by some considerable distance. Even though top of the log purely meant an easier path to the premiership final.

In short that playoff system reduced the league to a qualifying competition - but that wasn't being fully appreciated. In a similar vein bonus points in a very limited competition like the 6N reduces it to a competition that rewards tries scored over actual results

didds
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#14
IIRC the Welsh premiership didn't introduce bonus points before regional rugby took over
ah - it was before it was called the premiership I thin - apolgies, my confusion.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.sport.rugby.union/1996$2F97$20welsh$20league%7Csort:relevance/rec.sport.rugby.union/1AQoaTZwXXk/Alawk6zHQasJ

Unless that was a revamped bonus point system and there was an older one? One of the posters in that usenet tyhread mentions something about an old bonus points system?

didds
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#15
ah - it was before it was called the premiership I thin - apolgies, my confusion.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.sport.rugby.union/1996$2F97$20welsh$20league%7Csort:relevance/rec.sport.rugby.union/1AQoaTZwXXk/Alawk6zHQasJ

Unless that was a revamped bonus point system and there was an older one? One of the posters in that usenet tyhread mentions something about an old bonus points system?

didds
My bad - that's the era I was thinking of when I referred to the premiership. No memory of the bonus points, though!
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#17
I find it interesting that encouraging try scoring is seen as one benefit of the bonus point system.
Yet this short study of one of last year's EPCR pools suggests that that just isn't so. Surely points difference must be taken into consideration?
Yes, that was a strange one - it also shows bonus points not helping give a clear winner!

Does anyone know of any trials done with different bonus point systems? All I'm aware of (other than the 'old system' didds mentions above - and I don't know about that) is the Super 12 having 4-try and losing-by-7 bonus points and that same system being copied everywhere else, until it's possibly changing to a 4-try difference this year.

It seems strange that no other systems have been tried.
 

L'irlandais

, Promises to Referee in France
#18
The French Top 14 And ProD2 is slightly different
French system awards points in this manner: 4 points for a win. 2 points for a draw. 1 "bonus" point for winning while scoring at least 3 more tries than the opponent. 1 "bonus" point for losing by no more than a 5 point margin.
So à try fest of say 5 tries To 6, then neither team would be awarded a try bonus, nor a Loosing bonus.
 
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Balones

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#19
My understanding is that the bonus point system is an attempt to encourage more try scoring. If this is the case perhaps we should take this down to a more base level and simply get the 6 Ns to pay for tries!

I don’t know what the winning team gets for winning the 6Ns apart from a trophy but I know the players tend to get a financial bonus from their country. Perhaps a very simple points system for the ‘league’ would suffice and the winning team would get the trophy and the honour of winning. To encourage more tries the 6Ns could pay each country per try which in turn would go to the players in the squad on the day. At the end of the tournament the country scoring the most tries would earn (win) a bonus which would be split between the whole squad. (And coaches to encourage them as well)

If the result of the game towards the end is in no doubt then teams would be encouraged to go for the extra money. Of course the downside to this is that we could then have some devious players agreeing amongst themselves to score five tries apiece in the last ten minutes to earn their ‘bonus’.:)

Where is the tongue in cheek icon?
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#20
What you don't really want is a team losing on the last weekend, but still winning the trophy.
Wales achieved that in 1994 which was IIRC the first year an actual trophy was presented. They lost 15-8 to England at Twickenham, but England needed to beat them by 16 to lift the trophy themselves. It must have been a little embarrassing to receive the trophy immediately after the match under those circumstances!