Offside issues from my game

Donal1988

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#1
Result was 45-0 in what I had originally thought was a tight game. Anyway some questions in Blue v Yellow U16 Level.

Question 1 - lineout to Yellow just outside their own 22. They win lineout and scrumhalf gets ball after its tapped back. He chips over the lineout for hooker (who is behind him) to run onto but Yellow #7 who was part of the lineout, did not retreat and was not put onside, catches it. I awarded a penalty for offside. After game their coach said that he was "100% certain that offside doesnt apply in that situation". I politely told him that was rubbish and it of course applied. Was I correct to do as I did?

Question 2 - Blue #9 unleashes a box kick garryowen in similar circumstance to question 1. The ball is caught by the wind and is going to land about 3m past the lineout and maybe 10m further infield. Blue #s 6,8,3 and 4 do not start retreating at all maybe even more of them. I call "blue retreat" and they keep moving forward. Just as ball is bouncing they are put onside by centre for Blue. Blue #4 jumps and knocks back ball. I award penalty for loitering. Blue captain argues that his team were played onside by time they played ball. Was I correct?
 

Mike Selig

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#2
Not sure what yellow coach was smoking. Did he give any reason as to why an off-side player was entitled to play the ball in this situation.

Situation 2 is IMO one of the bit grey areas in rugby. Questions you have to ask yourself are
Were any of the Blue players within 10m of where the ball dropped (unclear from your description)? If so and they don't retreat promptly for me always a PK
If not, it is unclear IMO as to whether they necessarily have to retreat to be put on-side by team-mate. BUT they cannot move forwards until put on-side for me. So a call of "hold there" more than "retreat" is what I'd have used. If they carry on advancing immediate arm out for the advantage (don't wait until they get the ball).

At the end of the day, if you said "blue retreat" and they didn't you have to penalise. Spreaders did this in a game last year at youth level despite the fact that the player who didn't retreat as asked despite almost certainly not affecting the outcome (another kick) materially. His reasoning was if at any time you ask/tell the players to comply and they don't, materiality is no longer an issue, your authority is. So on that basis spot on.:)
 

Donal1988

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#3
I offered to get my law book from my bag and we could go through it together over a coffee in the clubhouse stressing that I was "eager to learn if I was indeed mistaken". Coach said he had to get home early and for now we would have to agree to disagree. He suggested that because the player was part of the lineout from the start it was ok and said that a player couldnt be offside in open play.

Situation 2 - I thought they were yes. I mentioned 10m law to captain when questioned.
 

kaypeegee

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#4
Not sure what yellow coach was smoking. Did he give any reason as to why an off-side player was entitled to play the ball in this situation.

Situation 2 is IMO one of the bit grey areas in rugby. Questions you have to ask yourself are
Were any of the Blue players within 10m of where the ball dropped (unclear from your description)? If so and they don't retreat promptly for me always a PK
I have always understood that players offside from a kick under the 10m Law MUST retreat until put onside.
Players offside from a kick who are not also offside under the 10m Law can stand still (but not advance) until put onside.

So, IMO, 2-nil to Donal!
 

Mike Selig

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#6
KPG, I'm not sure (and am feeling way too lazy to check up relevant law). In either case it's not reffed like that at the top end is it (which is why I called it a grey area)?

Am very confused by yellow coach...:chin:
 

Mike Selig

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#7
PS: if any of the 3 mentionned were within the 10 then there is no debate, your decision was entirely correct in law and spirit.
 

Deeps

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#8
kpg has it banged to rights. For those lazy boys, the relevant passages from the good book are Law 11.1(a) and 11.4.
 

Davet

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#9
Coach is probably clinically insane, and should be kept away from sharp objects.

If the players offside under 10m Law do not retreat then ping them. By not retreating, they are then closer to the action than they would have been if they had retreated then advanced once played onside, and thus
get an advantage.

If you call and they don't listen that's their stupidity.
 

andyscott

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#10
Yes if i ask a player to hold, and he walks towards the ball, i will penalise him, the law doesnt say, When the ref asks, just run slower or walk forward. :rolleyes:
 

Donal1988

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#11
Thats good to hear. I got an email from one of our elite level contingent who happened to be at the game. Was complimentary about my handling of foul play, dissent, offside management, set piece management and getting rid of small offenses as they cropped up. My lines of running and breakdown play were inconsistent however. Im happy enough with that I suppose. He said coach was just trying sow seeds of doubt and back myself.
 

Simon Thomas

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#12
Thats good to hear. I got an email from one of our elite level contingent who happened to be at the game. Was complimentary about my handling of foul play, dissent, offside management, set piece management and getting rid of small offenses as they cropped up. My lines of running and breakdown play were inconsistent however. Im happy enough with that I suppose. He said coach was just trying sow seeds of doubt and back myself.
Donal - fine with both your decisions but you are getting a pattern of development needs with breakdown and lines of running. Both are key to your progression and you need to get them both sorted, with I recommend external advice and examples.
 

Taff

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#13
I have always understood that players offside from a kick under the 10m Law MUST retreat until put onside. Players offside from a kick who are not also offside under the 10m Law can stand still (but not advance) until put onside.
That's exactly how it was explained to me. :wink: The key words are "until put onside" ie they don't have to retreat the full 10 metres if they get put onside before they've given the 10 metre gap.

Question 1 - lineout to Yellow just ... scrumhalf ... chips over the lineout ... but Yellow #7 who was part of the lineout, did not retreat and was not put onside, catches it. I awarded a penalty for offside.
I've no problem that he was offside, but I admit the sanction generally confuses me. :eek: When do you give a scrum for accidental offside, and when do you give a penalty? :chin: I've read up on "depriving the opposition an advantage" IIRC but what does this look like in real life? There were 2 video clips on here a few weeks ago showing both (funnily enough I thought it was Donal that put them on here) but as you can guess I can't find them again. :(
 
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ex-lucy

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#14
taff
i gave 2 pens for this very scenario on Sat .. played adv for one more.
i would say box kick from 9 at a line out .. forwrads had better not move frwds until put on side ... and if i shout "wait black ..." and they still move .. then that is an instant pen. This happened twice .. same team diff pen... and the excuse from capt "he didnt hear you, sir"
the adv was because the kick went further than a box kick, repl flanker ran ahead, i called him to stop, he did (but didnt retire), the ball was caught by oppo full back who had been a dangerous runner all day so i let him run a bit to see how he got on... he ran and passed to winger who scored....
brilliant adv
i guess it depends on the context.... and how you feel it at that moment
 

Donal1988

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#15
Donal - fine with both your decisions but you are getting a pattern of development needs with breakdown and lines of running. Both are key to your progression and you need to get them both sorted, with I recommend external advice and examples.
Simon I think so also. I made a decision and yesterday made a call to the selector and assessors head of the M.A.R. I firstly thanked him for getting me so many assessments (6 since September) when I am only new IRFU Level 1 referee who has been assessed more than once this year. We had a big presentation last week that they cant assess to many times this year as IRFU 4, 3, 2 and then 1 are their priorities so to get 6 assessments meant a lot. I said that a clear picture has been painted over these assessments regarding what I need to work on and that Im not happy that I have fixed them yet.

I told him I was hoping to do a couple of U13 and U14 fixtures over the next few weeks. That I wanted to take a step back get to most basic levels and really get the lines of running right. I was told that was a very mature decision and he said that it would be no problem and that I should concentrate fully on my lines of running which should improve my consistency at the breakdown. He said he would assign me several games at this level where there are few management issues and that whenever Im comfortable we would go back to the U19 and U21 level I was at and hopefully progress to adult rugby in the New Year.
 

Greg Collins

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#16
Donal - good on you, when confronted with an obstacle I've often found life has required me to take a small step back before making a great leap forward. (but not in reffing in my case ;) progress there is measure in pigeon steps)

I've found your descriptions of how refs are blooded and developed and generally how things are done in Ireland fascinating and a huge contrast to how it is done here. Sounds like the Irish model has more in common with the Welsh one that it does with the English method.
 

Donal1988

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#17
Im not familiar with the Welsh model Greg. Basically there are trainee members, general Association memebers, then IRFU Levels 1, 2, 3 and National Panel. You stay at any IRFU Level for 2 seasons and they decide then whether to move you up or if you have reached your peak. Priority guys are Level 2. They are who we aim to get assessed most.