[7's/10's] Heel kick conversion? Would you allow it?

Lee Lifeson-Peart

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#21
2. why is kicking from wrong side of posts illegal?
From definitions:-

Goal: A player scores a goal by kicking the ball over an opponents’ crossbar and between the goal posts from the field of play, by a place kick or drop-kick. A goal cannot be scored from a kick-off, drop-out or free kick.
 

crossref

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#22
But in many sevens tournaments, the organisers specifically request that conversions are taken from behind the goal.

I don't see a problem with that - time with clock stoppped retrieving a ball kicked behind a fence, or on to the next door pitch, is a nightmare for timekeeping in a sevens tournament with back to back games all day.

we don't have the luxury of ball boy placing a fresh ball at the half way mark after each try!
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart

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#23
But in many sevens tournaments, the organisers specifically request that conversions are taken from behind the goal.

I don't see a problem with that - time with clock stoppped retrieving a ball kicked behind a fence, or on to the next door pitch, is a nightmare for timekeeping in a sevens tournament with back to back games all day.

we don't have the luxury of ball boy placing a fresh ball at the half way mark after each try!
I don't necessarily disagree with you - Dickie E asked why it was illegal (of OB.. perhaps?) so I dug it out for him (and others) as OB.. hadn't responded and it at least puts one bit of the discussion to bed.

Kick from behind the posts is illegal.

"Kick" with a heel is illegal.

I'd go with point one in a 7s tournament if all agreed beforehand but I would rule the second kick illegal (and would try and stop it going over in the first place if a player lined it up in a Mark "Bouffant" Ring stylee).

Heel kick sits in my pisstaking, showboating file which I find irritating -at least I have the law on my side as opposed to props and others taking conversions during a landslide which just pisses me off but there's not a lot I can do (although I have suggested they don't do it before).
 

Blackberry

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#24
Sob, wail, bang bang bang (my head against a wall). The way to handle this...and all other myths/frequent mistakes is to tell players. Not on the pitch, not immediately after a whistle, but before they even get near a game. We are the best collectors of information (we see the mistakes being made) so we are in the best position to disseminate and distribute that information.

When I ran our society's website I realised what a vehicle it was for getting the information out and thereby avoiding players getting caught out. However, the website is only singing to one side of the congregation. What if there was a players' page which gave simple heads ups about frequent mistakes and misapprehensions. (Eg " A couple of times this seasons players taking the conversion have tried to do it with their heels; very impressive but it is against the laws so best not do it that way") We can ask that all players/coaches/even spectators read it... I can hear a few guffaws here but will press on because then the problem has been moved away from us onto those who failed to read it. It can become part of a player's routine.

I prepared a few explanations of common held myths and misunderstandings which I used at a couple of training sessions, and it worked well. But how much better if each society kept a running page on myths and misunderstandings which each player can read at his/her leisure.

I could post a couple of the examples if anyone is interested
 

Blackberry

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#26
Ooooookaaaay, he said a tad nervously. I'm going to start a new thread, and copy and paste the first session in and see what people think.
 
#28
Sob, wail, bang bang bang (my head against a wall). The way to handle this...and all other myths/frequent mistakes is to tell players. Not on the pitch, not immediately after a whistle, but before they even get near a game. We are the best collectors of information (we see the mistakes being made) so we are in the best position to disseminate and distribute that information.

When I ran our society's website I realised what a vehicle it was for getting the information out and thereby avoiding players getting caught out. However, the website is only singing to one side of the congregation. What if there was a players' page which gave simple heads ups about frequent mistakes and misapprehensions. (Eg " A couple of times this seasons players taking the conversion have tried to do it with their heels; very impressive but it is against the laws so best not do it that way") We can ask that all players/coaches/even spectators read it... I can hear a few guffaws here but will press on because then the problem has been moved away from us onto those who failed to read it. It can become part of a player's routine.

I prepared a few explanations of common held myths and misunderstandings which I used at a couple of training sessions, and it worked well. But how much better if each society kept a running page on myths and misunderstandings which each player can read at his/her leisure.

I could post a couple of the examples if anyone is interested
Would Law, or interpretation ( in which case whose (if opinion varies) would you plump for ) be the start point?

Maybe start with 'leggings' :biggrin:,
Then once thats nailed, move onto ruck collapsing, hands extracting the ball in ruck/scrum, releasing immediately, & the physics of relative velocity as applied to the pass etc.......

Good idea though.
 
#29
"Kick" with a heel is illegal.

Heel kick sits in my pisstaking, showboating file .....
This...

disallow it.
Law definition is specific & clear, ignoring it is the TEoTW.

That said, if the match was a non competitive fun pub/club event with joviality and pisstaking as the accepted standard , and players were all involved in doing so, then in that context ONLY I'd allow it & maybe applaud his pedexterity.
 

FlipFlop

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#30
IT's all about the level and nature of the game.

Serious game - disallow it.

Fun game - more likely to allow it. Especially if it has no impact on the result. I've even been know (as the ref) to be part of a 20 man maul in a game of 7s, and I've scored a try as the ref as well, and made a try saving tackle as well.

Not me in this photo - but spot the ref! (and it isn't the guy in the London shirt standing on the side of the field.....)
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart

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#31
I think he wanted to know why the IRB made it illegal. In this thread that question was irrelevant. I'm sure he knew the law as it has arisen on here before.
Maybe? I thought by virtue of Dickie E thanking me for the post then the information was new to him. Perhaps he knew but was just being polite?
 

crammond1964

Rugby Club Member
#33
i did one in the late 80's and it went over ....... we were winning by 50+ .... had i missed i been dropped as lack of respect ; however i had been praticing for weeks ... totally legal .
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart

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#36
i did one in the late 80's and it went over ....... we were winning by 50+ .... had i missed i been dropped as lack of respect ; however i had been praticing for weeks ... totally legal .
If you'd back heeled a kick against my team when you were winning by 50+ pts you wouldn't have done it twice. :wink:
 
#37
There must be a deliberate reason "except the heel" is included in the definition, anyone care to guess or enlighten???

Shin'ing meets the 'kick' definition, but heeling doesn't, how strange.

Kick: [FONT=fs_blakeregular]A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, [/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]except the heel[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular], from the toe [/FONT] [FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]to the knee[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular][/FONT] [FONT=fs_blakeregular] but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground[/FONT]
 

crossref

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#38
There must be a deliberate reason "except the heel" is included in the definition, anyone care to guess or enlighten???
it's because the Law wasn't thinking about kicks for goal, where it isn't really needed. It was thinking about quick taps, and what counts as kick. I imagine they felt that back heeling the ball was too subtle/disguised to be an acceptable way of taking a quick tap -- the tap needs to be clearly visible to the oppo, which is why it needs to leave the hand / move on the ground.

I don't imagine that conversions even occured them, and the banning of back-heeled conversions was merely collateral damage.
 

Bunniksider

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#39
it's because the Law wasn't thinking about kicks for goal, where it isn't really needed. It was thinking about quick taps, and what counts as kick. I imagine they felt that back heeling the ball was too subtle/disguised to be an acceptable way of taking a quick tap -- the tap needs to be clearly visible to the oppo, which is why it needs to leave the hand / move on the ground.

I don't imagine that conversions even occured them, and the banning of back-heeled conversions was merely collateral damage.
Wot he said!
 
#40
Which Crossref, would go to support the view that the 'ban' isnt intended to apply to 'conversions' , but only to PK or FKs.

Irrespective of skill or technique, I retain the view that its piss taking & disrespectful to the opposition, as we'd likely never see it in a close score (serious) fixture.
 
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