[In-goal] Warming up players in-goal

MrQeu

Rugby Club Member
#1
https://streamable.com/up1nf

So some blue players were warling up, defending ruck about 10 m from own goal line. SH passes back to the FH... and there is none, but several opposing bench players, one of them under the posts and another a mere meter in-goal. The ball goes dead in goal

Your call?
 
Last edited:

L'irlandais

, Promises to Referee in France
#2
‪I think the problem comes about in the Elite game, since the rest of the playing enclosure is given over to cameras, press and advertising hoardings.; leaving little room for replacements to warm-up.

6.A.5‬ Entering or leaving the playing area
(e)The referee gives permission to the replacements or substitutes to enter the playing area.
Shouldn't be there without the ref's permission, since the in-goal area is part of the playing area.
 
Last edited:

L'irlandais

, Promises to Referee in France
#3
This previous discussion came up with this for the RFU.

Each Union will have their own Rules and Regulations . While USA rugby allows replacements to warm up in-goal if they wear a contrasting bib.

17.2.3 *Where there are permanent dugouts or shelters team replacements and coaching staffs must confine themselves to them or remain outside the pitchside barriers, or if none, the playing enclosure (as defined by the Referee) other than when a player is about to replace a player on the pitch, when a player is temporarily suspended or for the periods of half-time. Permitted Personnel


*(2009 discussion, so ref number may well have evolved.)
 
Last edited:

MrQeu

Rugby Club Member
#4
It's common in the elite game for substitutes to warm up in the ingoal. And I see no problem with that. Whenever the play is near the the goal line, they retreat to the far edge and stop moving in order not to interfere with the game.

In this instance, well, one player even had a foot on the goal line!
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Club Member
#5
If pressed, I would say I am not a fan of the principle, allowed or not. This just took the biscuit for a number of reasons. Contasting bibs were not particularly contrasting to their own strip, notwithstanding they were in contrast to the opposition. Spread across the in goal area some in close proximity of play and encroaching on the goal line around the posts.

Always a potential flashpoint when a try is scored and they dive in for congratulations, pulling opposition players off the try scorer.

Are they restricted to a particular end? I always think I am alerted to it being the end they are attacking?
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#6
There is just no need for it ( I know otheres wil disagree but I like to see a valid reason for it). At the pro level surely sides can provide an area near to but outside the PE with a strip of artificial grass or similar for players to warm up.
 

ctrainor

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#7
The subs warming up could also have called for the ball. Should be stopped. There is clearly an area where subs could run up and down in this clip behind the dead ball line. The didn't and clearly had material effect on what was happening
 

Baylion

Rugby Club Member
#8
Surely Law 3.2 applies

[FONT=fs_blakeregular]3.2 Team with more than the permitted number of players
[/FONT][FONT=fs_blakeregular]Objection: at any time before or during a match a team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. As soon as the referee knows that a team has too many players, the referee must order the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered.[/FONT]
Sanction: Penalty at the place where the match would restart.
 

Camquin

Rugby Club Member
#9
NCA regulations permit substitutes to warm up in the in-goal.
The fourth official has the task of ensuring they only warm up in the appropriate in-goal - but does not say they can control when players warm up.

You could add a clause only permitting players to warm up while their team is defending.
 

L'irlandais

, Promises to Referee in France
#10
I think Ciaran is right, although it's not clear from that clip, the scrum-half's reaction was such that he had been conned. He could have looked, but if the the sub called for the ball, he should be red carded, surely?
Regulations allow them to warm up in-goal but not to interfere in play.
 

Hillbob

Rugby Club Member
#11
I watched the clip and thought "how is this not a penalty?"
However, apart from unsportsmanlike conduct or as mentioned before 3.2 Team with more than the permitted number of players.
I can´t think of a creason
 

Baylion

Rugby Club Member
#12
Paul Dobson:
They are in effect non-players. They are treated like spectators and medics. Just as the referee is not authorised to penalise spectators who dispute his decisions or the "medics" who call out things like "Holding", "Release", and "Offside". If non-players are intrusive, as has been the wont of streakers, he is entitled to stop the match while the base intruder is removed. But he does not penalise him.
The same is true for the non-playing players warming up in the Lions' in-goal. That they were silly to have been where they were when play was so close to them is an error of judgement, but not penalisable. Even if the ball had touched them - or a spectator or a parked car in in-goal - they would not be penalised.
the ball was not touched by a Stormer.
The referee's decision was the right one. The referee's job is to apply the Laws of the Game as made by World Rugby. That is what the referee did.
http://www.rugby365.com/laws-referees/law-discussions/78623-law-discussion-subs-on-the-field
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#13
It doesn't happen in this clip, but had the ball hit a replacement in goal, would there be a case for applying 6.A.11 - The ball in in-goal touched by a non-player?

IMO there is as it's damn obvious that they're not meant to be 'players', but I can imagine someone disagreeing (one of the coaches involved, if nobody else).
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#14
Its a situation that only ever happens at the very top levels. The answer is clearly that they shouldn;t be in those areas. I appreciate that creates a problem for players to warm up, but that's for the pro game to sort out.

one day it WILL be a critical moment.

didds
 

Phil E

, Referees/Trains Referees in England
#15
Mr Dobson may be a law guru (whatever that means) but he is wrong.
Replacements and substitutes are defined as player at the start of Law 3.
Law 10 definitions state that all players in the playing enclosure (which includes in-goal) can be penalised for foul play, which includes anything that is against the letter or the spirit of the laws.

There is also a precedent for this with substitutes being carded in premiership games for interfering with the ball to prevent quick throws.
 

Phil E

, Referees/Trains Referees in England
#16
Its a situation that only ever happens at the very top levels. The answer is clearly that they shouldn;t be in those areas. I appreciate that creates a problem for players to warm up, but that's for the pro game to sort out.

one day it WILL be a critical moment.

didds
Players are not allowed to enter the field of play without permission. In-goal isn't part of the field of play, it's part of the playing enclosure, which they do not need permission to enter.
 

chbg

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#17
Players are not allowed to enter the field of play without permission. In-goal isn't part of the field of play, it's part of the playing enclosure, which they do not need permission to enter.
Ahem ... in-goal is part of the playing area; the playing enclosure also includes the 'perimeter area'.

Law 6.A.5 addresses Entering or Leavng the Playing Area:

(a) Authorised medically trained persons may enter the playing area during the match to attend to injured players. They must only enter the playing area if it is safe to do so.
(b) Persons carrying water for the players may only enter the playing area during a stoppage in play for an injury to a player.
(c) A person carrying a kicking tee may enter the field of play after a team has indicated that they intend to kick at goal after that team has been awarded a penalty kick or scored a try.
(d) The referee gives permission to the players to leave the playing area.
(e) The referee gives permission to the replacements or substitutes to enter the playing area.
(f) The coaches may enter the playing area at half-time to attend to their teams.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#18
Players are not allowed to enter the field of play without permission. In-goal isn't part of the field of play, it's part of the playing enclosure, which they do not need permission to enter.
sorry Phil - when I said "they shouldn't be in those areas" I didn't mean under the laws specifically./ Its just a daft idea that goes against any normal common sense (nothwithstanding the lack of warm up space - but that's a problem for the pro game to solve, not us here )

this sort of "mistake" will continue to happen all the time subs can mill around in-goal. And one day it will become a critical issue, because if nothing else "shit happens".



didds
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#19
Law 3 Definition:
A Team. A team consists of fifteen players who start the match plus any authorised replacements and/or substitutes.
Replacement. A player who replaces an injured team-mate.
Substitute. A player who replaces a team-mate for tactical reasons.


Law 1 Definitions
The Playing Area is the field of play and the in-goal areas (as shown on the plan). The touchlines, touch-in-goal lines and dead ball lines are not part of the playing area.

Law 3.1
Maximum: each team must have no more than fifteen players on the playing area during play.

So replacements and substitutes are "players" (Law 3), the "playing area" includes the in-goal (Law 1), and there were more than 15 in the playing area (Law 3.1).

Now to Law 6.5 (e)
The referee gives permission to the replacements or substitutes to enter the playing area.

Surely he had not given such permission? If he hadn't then what can he do?

Law 3.2
Objection: at any time before or during a match a team may make an objection to the referee about the number of players in their opponents’ team. As soon as the referee knows that a team has too many players, the referee must order the captain of that team to reduce the number appropriately. The score at the time of the objection remains unaltered.

Does this require an objection by the other team? " As soon as the referee knows.." surely allows him to use his own judgement.

At most professional matches, there is rarely much space for warm-ups outside the playing area, so teams use the in-goal. However they should surely only be allowed to do so when play is at the other end of the pitch.

one day it WILL be a critical moment.
England v New Zealand at Twickenham a few years ago. Jonny was lining up a kick at goal and the All Blacks decided to warm up in that very in-goal area. The crowd started booing them. The referee did nothing, and Jonny nailed the kick. Referee off the hook, but what if Jonny had missed?
 

chbg

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#20
England v New Zealand at Twickenham a few years ago. Jonny was lining up a kick at goal and the All Blacks decided to warm up in that very in-goal area. The crowd started booing them. The referee did nothing, and Jonny nailed the kick. Referee off the hook, but what if Jonny had missed?
Was it a PK or a conversion? If the former, then "the opposing team" must stand still; this has to include those in the playing area. if the latter, the restriction is on charging across the GL before the kicker advances on the ball.