Tigers v Saints

dickell

Rugby Club Member
#1
I don't know if anyone watched this match. Phil E, I suspect that you were there. I thought that the ref, Dan Jones, of whom I had never heard, had a terrific game, possibly the best I've seen this season. He was calm, well-positioned, communicated very well (without using players' names - hooray), and made his own decisions without excessive reliance on the TMO. I hope that he continues and that we see him at higher levels fairly soon.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#2
A young Lad from Cardiff. Looked a bit like a rabbit in headlights when he first got his chance but much more assured now. Thankfully being pushed too early has not been detrimental to his progress. One of a group of talented youngsters we now have in Wales comeing through. If we can keep then and they continue to grow our reffing future is looking good.



We might see more welsh me in the RWC Final (well the players are not going to do it anytime soon!)
 

SilverMoon

Rugby Club Member
#4
promising but a few howlers from him and his TMO. 1) penalty to Tigers on centre half way line. owen Williams moves the ball forward, bounces it a couple of times and ends up striking the ball nearer the 10m line 2) Thackers try. Tackled a metre short of try line with no momentum of his own. Supporting players carry him over the line. Ref wants to give the try, TMO doesn't but cant articulate his reasoning. 3) TMO coaching referee throughout the game - out of protocol surely ?
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#5
promising but a few howlers from him and his TMO.
1) penalty to Tigers on centre half way line. owen Williams moves the ball forward, bounces it a couple of times and ends up striking the ball nearer the 10m line
2) Thackers try. Tackled a metre short of try line with no momentum of his own. Supporting players carry him over the line. Ref wants to give the try, TMO doesn't but cant articulate his reasoning.
3) TMO coaching referee throughout the game - out of protocol surely ?

1: Sadly the norm these days. Regularly 5 or so yards are pinched at kicks at higher level games.

2: From what you post it seems wrong.

3; The point of the tournament is development, both of players and officials, so whilst it may nor be "protocol" surely it is part of that development process.


If indeed the TMO was "coaching" the ref, Surely he could / would have corrected the first "howler". Again surely any problem with point two could /would have been easy to articulate and ensure that the right call was achieved.

If Dan continues to mprove as a result of the "illicit" coaching in such games, I, for one, will be happy.
 

Wert Twacky

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#6
Dan lives in Bristol after moving recently from Oxfordshire with his Mrs.... therefore can we claim him? :biggrin:
 

The Fat

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#7
Anyone care to comment on the incident around 39 minutes where the Tigers #1 backs away from a maul (about 4m), lines up the bald dude from Saints (#8 I think), then charges into him, driving the right shoulder into the Saints player's back/ribs.
The referee looks at it on the screen and gives #1 green a YC.
Would anyone on here have considered a RC?
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#8
Dan lives in Bristol after moving recently from Oxfordshire with his Mrs.... therefore can we claim him? :biggrin:
I think he is with the police (was the Met I understand). I was surprised he kept his WRU status. So as he wants to be WRU and he getting to be quite good........ NO! is your answer we are keeping him! :wales:

It is rumoured that he was told by his high school sports teacher (also a ref) "If you want to stay on the pitch at senior level I suggest you try reffing!" Seems to have been good advise.

- - - Updated - - -

Anyone care to comment on the incident around 39 minutes where the Tigers #1 backs away from a maul (about 4m), lines up the bald dude from Saints (#8 I think), then charges into him, driving the right shoulder into the Saints player's back/ribs.
The referee looks at it on the screen and gives #1 green a YC.
Would anyone on here have considered a RC?
Do you have a link?
 

Phil E

, Referees/Trains Referees in England
#9
Yes I did see the game.
I was in TV control listening to the ref and putting his decisions onto the big screen.
I have seen this ref before and he wasn't great, but I thought this game he was generally excellent.
I though the TMO was out of line by transmitting to the ref about his performance, not sure if it's protocol in Wales, but it isn't in RFU land.
Is the TMO his coach? I expect not.

He communicated well with the players, maintained his authority without being authoritarian.

The YC for charging into the ruck was called in by the TMO, I thought the player used his arms, TMO thought he didn't, and that's what the YC was for. Ref agreed with no arms, I am not so sure, but ce la vie.

The Thacker try could have gone either way. Ref thought he was driven over the line by his teammates, so effectively a momentum try. The TMO though not and that he had propelled himself over the line with two movements. I would have been happy with either decision, but was glad that the ref didn't allow himself to be browbeaten by the TMO and made his own decision. Interestingly, if memory serves me right, the TMO only showed slow motion replays, which supported his case. In real time it looked ok.

Yes a few things to work on, but generally an excellent game.
 
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The Fat

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#11
The YC for charging into the ruck was called in by the TMO, I thought the player used his arms, TMO thought he didn't, and that's what the YC was for. Ref agreed with no arms, I am not so sure, but ce la vie.
.
The camera angle from the side (view of green #1's left side) shows his left arm going forward but possibly not in contact with white #8.
The view from behind #1 green looks like right shoulder only.
It seems we give players a little more leeway when the victim is bound to a ruck or maul. I suppose my question is partly, would we only issue a YC if the same happened in general play? i.e. White player without the ball has his back to green player who lines the white player up and shoulder charges him blindly? If that scenario is too simplified, let's imagine the scenario in the Saints v Tigers game but let's say the white #8 has just detached from the maul to go back around, and the #1 green lines him up and shoulder charges him from behind just like he did in that game. Does the fact of whether or not the white player is bound to the maul affect your decision & should it?
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#12
I though the TMO was out of line by transmitting to the ref about his performance, not sure if it's protocol in Wales, but it isn't in RFU land.
Is the TMO his coach? I expect not.
It would not be acceptable for comments re his performance to be transmitted here.

I don't know who his coach mentor is. Nigel Whitehouse keeps close contact with the academy boys. With Dan being across the bridge he may have a link with an English society too. Who was the TMO?
 

The Fat

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#13
Full match
Watch #1 green at around 38:50 on the game clock followed by replays
It is the backing up and run up that concerns me a little
[video=youtube;deR3a1CTfds]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deR3a1CTfds[/video]
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#15
I think he does conform to binding etc as Pegleg says. But it is clear that he clearly targets that player and the exposed rib area.

didds
 

Balones

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#16
Dan lives in Bristol after moving recently from Oxfordshire with his Mrs.... therefore can we claim him? :biggrin:
I had the privilege of observing him on his first exchange game on a Panel Game and was impressed at his potential. He does have a strong Welsh accent (as far as English people are concerned) so that in itself means you can't claim him.:D
 

Wedgie

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#17
Full match
Watch #1 green at around 38:50 on the game clock followed by replays
It is the backing up and run up that concerns me a little
[video=youtube;deR3a1CTfds]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deR3a1CTfds[/video]
I agree with the YC for dangerous play.

Can someone with more FR experience than me explain the scrum just prior to to this maul incident?

37:50 on game clock. The initial (I think) and clarifying call come from the AR who informs ref penalty against White tight head for going down first. All I see is Green loose head not driving straight, losing his feet and then driving even less straight and going down at same time, if not before, White front row. Was this caused by White tight head?

Thanks, Wedgie.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#18
neither #1 nor #3 are packed straight to start with. #1 could be exacerbated by #3. However #1 is already hugely angled at the time the ref gives the SH the nod to put in. Frankly - he shouldn't have. #1 wasn't conforming from word go - #3 is slightly angled but not that badly. #1 is all over the shop. Once the pressure comes on at set exacerbated by =3 slight angle #1 loses it totally. So in that regard #3 is at fault for the eventual collapse probably, but it wouldn't have happened if #1 hadn't been so badly angled to start with

View attachment 3513


didds
 
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SimonSmith

, Referees in America, Rank Bajin!
#20
Because I'm not sure the read from the booth is the same read that the referee gets in terms of mood and spirit of the match. Because booth replay can exacerbate close decisions. Because the referee may be standing there/standing there for a very good reason.

But most importantly because the teams deserve an ISO9000 referee - right or wrong, consistent.