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TigerCraig

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#41
Because every team must have one, or they don't play. At my club we send two or three parents from each junior team to the course each pre season and make sure we have at least one at every game our senior team play - usually me or my son
 
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crossref

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#44
Because every team must have one, or they don't play. At my club we send two or three parents from each junior team to the course each pre season and make sure we have at least one at every game our senior team play - usually me or my son
To me that feels like they are appointed , one by each club, ie duly appointed according to the regulations in place that give each club the power - and the obligation - to appoint ARs
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Club Member
#46
The bit that says the AR will no doubt act with absolute impartiality when officiating in own club games. It makes absolute sense to differentiates the two roles. At what point does a self professed impartiality become a problem?
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#47
99% (or at least the vast majority) of refs in Australia are L1. That let's you referee any amateur game. Many like me have done the Level 2 theory but never bothered to get the full accreditation. As has been said before, anyone here with an Ar accreditation is an Ar with full powers anytime they are on a sideline with a flag - appointed or not, and no game is supposed to kick off unless there are 2 accredited AR's
Again highlighting the differnce between countries and the importance of cvorrect terminology. Here we have:

L1 - You can referee up to U16.
L2 - You can referee anything up to Youth and what used to be called "district" rugby.
L3 - You can referee in the Welsh League system. (this level has internal sub divisions. So Nigel O is a L3 in Wales but can referee higher than me).

All refs and indeed anyone can act as a TJ.
All L2 and L3 refs can be appointed to act as an AR.

I can't rock up as say: "I'll be AR for you". Formal appointment has to happen.

Games under our "championship" will not have ARs and last season I ran touch in the last 16 of the Welsh cup but was not an AR as it was club provided TJs I justhappened to be a ref. The other side provided a committee man to do the job.

The Op (Irish) will work within their protocols.They may be very different or the same as yours or mine.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#48
Because every team must have one, or they don't play. At my club we send two or three parents from each junior team to the course each pre season and make sure we have at least one at every game our senior team play - usually me or my son
Is there not a, potential, issue with a CLUB guy calling foul play anf possibly advising that a person from the other team be red carded?
 

TigerCraig

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#49
Is there not a, potential, issue with a CLUB guy calling foul play anf possibly advising that a person from the other team be red carded?
Of course, but in my experience the guys doing it take the job seriously. Most wear a distinctive shirt and are proud of the job they do. I've had guys report foul play and advise non awarding of tries against their own clubs plenty of times. Clubs and individuals soon get a reputation. Rugby here is a very small community
 

Jarrod Burton

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#50
Is there not a, potential, issue with a CLUB guy calling foul play anf possibly advising that a person from the other team be red carded?
I had this happen to me in my first senior game, between the two teams which ended up playing the grand final. Pretty ferocious game that was extremely physical and a fair bit of niggle which I didn't really deal with well enough. Both AR's were appointed, one neutral but the other was a L1 referee/AR from the home club. At 73 minutes with the home team down by 4, a very messy ruck occurred where the ball was turned over twice. The home AR flagged an incident as I saw a penalty against G11 for a side entry clean out and was going to the bin after a team warning. Stopped the game and got his report which consisted of "Green 11 stomping on Black player on the floor behind the ruck". I know the player who he claimed made the stomp and I'm thinking I'll eat my hat if he did that.
Me "Ok, confirming that is was stomping of a player not in a ruck"
Him "Oh yeah danced all over him"
Me "Sanction Recommendation please?"
Him As his expression changed to realise what I was thinking of calling his bluff "Oh, only a yellow, was only one stamp."
Me "Really? A Yellow? (vigorous nodding from him)." Now I'm thinking BS. "Nope, Dancing on someone means Red Card, but you are doing the paperwork".
Walked over to the Captain and G11, told him the sequence of events, issued the card and told him I'd talk to him after the match.

After the game, the confused player wanted to know what was happening, was he going to get suspended, etc. I told him that I'd write in the report what I saw and the behaviour of the AR and that the AR would need to outline what happened in his report, which I didn't think would happen so not to worry about it. AR never submitted a report and the player was not sanctioned, with the RC removed from him record. Maybe I shouldn't have called his bluff but the Green club still laugh about it every time I visit.....
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#52
Me "Ok, confirming that is was stomping of a player not in a ruck"
Him "Oh yeah danced all over him"
Me "Sanction Recommendation please?"
Him As his expression changed to realise what I was thinking of calling his bluff "Oh, only a yellow, was only one stamp."
Me "Really? A Yellow? (vigorous nodding from him)." Now I'm thinking BS. "Nope, Dancing on someone means Red Card, but you are doing the paperwork".
Walked over to the Captain and G11, told him the sequence of events, issued the card and told him I'd talk to him after the match.

After the game, the confused player wanted to know what was happening, was he going to get suspended, etc. I told him that I'd write in the report what I saw and the behaviour of the AR and that the AR would need to outline what happened in his report, which I didn't think would happen so not to worry about it. AR never submitted a report and the player was not sanctioned, with the RC removed from him record. Maybe I shouldn't have called his bluff but the Green club still laugh about it every time I visit.....
Coople of issues here;
Bold bit: Poor choice of wording!
Better something along the line of: " So let me make sure I understand. Green 11 stomping on Black player on the floor behind the ruck. Dancing all over him. Is that right?" Reply is then either:
"correct" in which case you are describibe a RED CARD offence. Have I understood you correctly"
If he says: "NO it was just one stamp" You make your call or possibly ask now for his recomendation if you think you need to.

Why would you have asked for a recomndation when you clearly thought it was a red card? YOU TAKE CONTROL NOT THE AR!

Whatever happens your words to the Captain were poor!

"Captain This is what we have. AR has seen Green 11 stamp on a Black player on the ground. Outcome is red / yellow card against Green 11 and a PK". You do not tell him that you will include in your report "the behaviour of the AR". You have just blown the To3 into the air. A a captain I'd have now lost all respect in you are a referee.

Mind you it sounds like a poor choice of apointment for your first senior game.


WRT reports. AFTER the game tell the AR you will prepare your card report and you will ring him Tonight /tomorrow evening to get his report. It is down to you to control that as well. YOU are the ref. YOU are the "manager" of the To3.
 
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didds

, Resident Club Coach
#54
Coople of issues here;
Why would you have asked for a recomndation when you clearly thought it was a red card?
I read the above to be because the ref wanted to ensure it was the (perceived biased) AR that made the actual call, even if that is against the normal protocols, because the ref didn't think it likely based on knowledge of the player concerned.

didds
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#55
Does it really matter. Potentially the player faced a ban etc for a, seemingly, dodgy call.
well maybe Ive read the OP wrongly but it seems to me that


* the AR called the player on an alleged stamp.
* the ref didn't think the player did it based on knowledge of said player
* the ref however cannot definitively say it didn;t happen
* the ref is somewhat duty bound to act on the advice of a AR
* the ref thus left the entire onus on the AR to make the call, giving hi sopportunities to back down
* the sanction was in line with what was reported
* the ref thought it was BS and the report wouldn't go through

So he was pretty sure the player was "safe" - so the only impact was that the result may have been affected with that side playing a man down.

That all said I am uncomfortable that a player got RCd for something he didn't do too, and the team may have suffered as a result. But I can see the logic behind the OPs processes.

didds
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#56
Why would you have asked for a recomndation when you clearly thought it was a red card? YOU TAKE CONTROL NOT THE AR!
It seemed clear to me the ref did not really believe it likely to be a RC because he doubted very much the reported stamp actually happened. He was calling the (perceived biased) AR out on the allegation giving the AR enough rope to hang himself and being very clear what the ramifications of the AR's call were.

didds
 

Jarrod Burton

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#57
It was perhaps a bad call at the end of a bad day.

Reporting of YC/RC down here is made by the official that made the report, if it is an AR, then they submit a report and the referee also makes a report.

The AR had given me several dodgy decisions on touch and offside at LO - no comms but when I got the chance to chat at a stoppage he reminded me several times of it. My ref coach who was present told me at half time to ignore the offside claims, as they hadn't happened.

I don't think the red would have affected the result, after all, G11 was going to the bin regardless for team penalties. I did give the AR enough rope to hang himself and he hasn't refereed more than one or two games since. I certainly learnt a huge amount from the game including watching for flash points and making sure I position in such a way to see more of the breakdown. At the one in question, I was too close to the action and got too engrossed in the game.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#58
Our regulations say that the club receiving a Red Card must report it to the County Disciplinary Secretary within 48 hours. That means the officials have no option but to submit a report themselves as well.
 

crossref

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#59
over here if the referee gives a RC for an incident he didn't see, but which was seen and reported by the AR, I would expect that both the Ref and the AR would have to write a report.

The ref's report being somewhat of a formality - "I didn't see it" - but required nonetheless.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#60
over here if the referee gives a RC for an incident he didn't see, but which was seen and reported by the AR, I would expect that both the Ref and the AR would have to write a report.

The ref's report being somewhat of a formality - "I didn't see it" - but required nonetheless.
Same here. The ref would say what the AR reported to him. If the referee did not see it and the AR's report was clearly indicating a red then the referee says it was red on the basis of the AR report. The referee would be vindicated.

Incidentally any assessor would also have to give a report if he was at the game in an official capacity.

The basic policy is the referee leads the discussion. Usually telling the AR what, if anything, the referee saw. He then invites the AR to add anything that he saw in addition to what the referee saw. He may ask the other AR if he also saw anything. On the basis of the report(s) the referee says he is minded to give a particular sanction. OR he may ask for a recomendation if it is not a clear red or yellow. However, that should be rare.

Seek guidance from your society on the completion of the reports and make sure that the ref and the AR do not contradict each other.

That the referee does not think the player would do it is no reason to overule or downgrade any sanction.