Preventing QTI by touching ball whilst in posession of the opposition

Jolly Roger

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#1
19.2 states:

(d). For a quick throw-in, the player must use the ball that went into touch. A quick throw-in is not permitted if another person has touched the ball apart from the player throwing it in and an opponent who carried it into touch. The same team throws into the lineout.

(h) At a quick throw-in, a player must not prevent the ball being thrown in 5 metres.
Sanction: Free Kick on 15-metre line

If Red player takes the ball into touch and Blue rips the ball from the hands of Red Ball carrier what is the situation if another Red player runs up to Blue and places hands on the ball, now in Blue’s posession? Has Red player now denied Blue the opportunity of a quick throw by touching the ball (19.2.d) or is Red guilty of preventing the ball being thrown in therefore contravening 19.2.h?
 

Dickie E

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#2
This is one of those "I'd have to see it".

If the second Red player got a glancing contact with the ball and it had no material impact, I'd let Blue take QTI and have a word with Red player to not be a dick.

If he had material impact, penalise under 19.2.h
 

Dickie E

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#4
A trickier situation is if the first Red player, when he sees the Blue player approach, tosses the ball to his team mate. What would you do then?
 

Ian_Cook

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#5
A trickier situation is if the first Red player, when he sees the Blue player approach, tosses the ball to his team mate. What would you do then?

PK. Throwing the ball to a team mate is materially no different than throwing it away. Although not specifically prohibited in Law, IMO, it comes under denying the opposition the ball.

Law 19.2 (i) If a player carrying the ball is forced into touch, that player must release the ball to an
opposition player so that there can be a quick throw-in.
Sanction: Penalty kick on 15-metre line
 
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Dickie E

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#6
I think there are lots of shades of grey with this issue. Player runs into touch and immediately hands ball to ball boy. Offence? I would generally only penalise if Red player withheld handing the ball over to opponent
 

Ian_Cook

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#7
I think there are lots of shades of grey with this issue. Player runs into touch and immediately hands ball to ball boy. Offence? I would generally only penalise if Red player withheld handing the ball over to opponent
So what would you do if the player threw the ball over the hoardings (or in a grass-roots game, over the sideline crowd) ?
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#8
I've just realised... 19.2d also prevents an initial blue player getting the ball and throwing/giving/lobbing it to another blue player to subsequently throw in.


didds
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#9
I've seen pro players run into touch and give the ball to a ball boy in such a manner... though I can;t recall when or whether they then got penalised!

And TBH, giving away a FK is hardly any different to a lineout, and if in featr of a lineout maul near a try line may be preferable in some circumtances.

didds
 

Ian_Cook

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#10
I've seen pro players run into touch and give the ball to a ball boy in such a manner... though I can;t recall when or whether they then got penalised!

And TBH, giving away a FK is hardly any different to a lineout, and if in featr of a lineout maul near a try line may be preferable in some circumtances.

didds
Its not a FK, its a PK.

19.2 (i) If a player carrying the ball is forced into touch , that player must release the ball to an opposition player so that there can be a quick throw-in.
Sanction: Penalty kick on 15-metre line
 

crossref

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#11
Which is now 18.3
3. A player who carries the ball into touch must release the ball immediately so that a quick
throw may be taken. Sanction: Penalty.


The gap in the Law is that there is nothing to stop a team mate of the ball carrier from preventing a QTI by briefly handling the loose ball. (Is that even an offence )

When the QTI is prevented by physical interference with the would be thrower, I think it's easy to give a PK , even though there is no specific Law
 

Dickie E

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#12
So what would you do if the player threw the ball over the hoardings (or in a grass-roots game, over the sideline crowd) ?
If a QTI was on AND if the the Red player obstructed the Blue player from taking the ball out of his hands, then PK. Otherwise, play on to line out
 
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Pinky

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#13
I would be prepared to PK a red player for any action that meant a QTI was not on. That would include him petulantly holding on to the ball, kicking or throwing it away, passing or handing it to someone so it was touched by another person, that would include a ball boy. (Indeed when I have AR'd at cup finals, one of the things I do as AR is make sure the ball boys do not catch the ball if it is kicked into touch as that can affect the game by meaning there is no QTI) Or passed to another player or management. There is previous with the bench getting into trouble by playing the ball in touch to stop a QTI. Obviously if there was no opposition looking for the ball, for him to roll it back towards the lot or give it to a ball boy would not be material.
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
#14
If a chaser of the kicking team ran the ball down, retrieved it and then threw it to an opponent I'd have difficulty PKing him for that.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#15
but presumably he isn't preventing a QTI?

(Though I'm sure we can dream up a scenario where he would be...)

didds
 

Ian_Cook

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#16
If a QTI was on AND if the the Red player obstructed the Blue player from taking the ball out of his hands, then PK. Otherwise, play on to line out

Red 14 is tackled onto the ground into touch by Blue 11. Immediately, before Blue 11 can get to his feet, Red 14 hurls the ball over the hoardings.

You would NOT penalise Red 14?


ETA: For mine, I would like to see two things changed in the QTI Law

1. I would remove the restriction on the ball touching being touched by other players. The only requirement would be that the same ball is used.

This would
Prevent players from handing the ball to a team mate to stop a QTI
Allow players to throw the ball to a team-mate to take a QTI

2. I would add a phrase to the effect that a ball-carrier forced into touch must immediately drop, place or release the ball and must not take any action to prevent an opponent from taking possession of the ball.

This would
Prevent players from throwing th ball away to stop a QTI
Prevent players from handing the ball to a ball boy or member of the public to stop a QTI

If a chaser of the kicking team ran the ball down, retrieved it and then threw it to an opponent I'd have difficulty PKing him for that.
I have no problem with a player chasing a ball into touch and touching the ball because there is always the possibility that he might not know for sure who last touched the ball (deflection off a team mate?) and therefore, whose throw it would be. However, in the case of a ball carrier being forced into touch, there is no doubt about who put the ball in touch.
 
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ChrisR

Player or Coach
#17
but presumably he isn't preventing a QTI?

(Though I'm sure we can dream up a scenario where he would be...)

didds
Yes, he's preventing a QTI because he didn't carry the ball into touch. I'm proposing that the ball went into touch before he retrieved it.
 

MadRef77

Rugby Club Member
#18
I've seen pro players run into touch and give the ball to a ball boy in such a manner... though I can;t recall when or whether they then got penalised!

And TBH, giving away a FK is hardly any different to a lineout, and if in featr of a lineout maul near a try line may be preferable in some circumtances.

didds
Don't you always get the option of a lineout for a FK awarded at a lineout? If the non-offending team prefers a lineout they just have to ask anyway.
 

Camquin

Rugby Club Member
#20
As written only applies to lineout not quick throw - but surely that is just an omission due to not actually bothering with an editor.

201
Lineout alternative. A team awarded a penalty or a free kick at a lineout may choose a further lineout into which they throw in. This is in addition to the scrum option.
2018
A team awarded a penalty or free-kick at a lineout may instead choose a lineout or a scrum at the same mark.