Numbers in lineout

crossref

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#21
There may be 101 reasons why they may or may not wish to advertise their numbers. It's their business. It could be tactical. Who knows. The point is not WHY they dont wish to say. The point is they are not required to. So If you ask and they decline. What do you do?

Ping them? If so which law?

Back down and have your authority undermined?

Why make a rod for your own back?
is that really why you wouldn't ever ask ? in case they refused to tell you?

- It's such a slight danger, I think that's a rather fearful way to ref.
- I can only conceive of it happening in a game where the ref and the team were already in quite serious conflict. In that situation, if all co-operration/trust has gone already I agree it would be unwise to ask.
 

Phil E

, Referees/Trains Referees in England
#22
So how about an answer to my question?

Red tell you, POLITELY, that they have no "legal requirement to tell you their numbers. So what do you do?
If you don't want to tell me fellas, that's fine. But just hang on there while I count, and the opposition count, then wait a bit longer while I give them the time they are entitled to, to match numbers......it could take us a while.

Just manage it.
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
#23
So, Red send three to the line (no ambiguity of intentions) and Blue send seven. Blue realizes their error and four Blue start to retire but Red immediately throw in and win the ball as Blue are not organized to defend.

Play on?
Ping Blue for too many?
Ping Red for not allowing Blue sufficient time to get back a full 10m?
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#24
So, Red send three to the line (no ambiguity of intentions) and Blue send seven. Blue realizes their error and four Blue start to retire but Red immediately throw in and win the ball as Blue are not organized to defend.

Play on?
Ping Blue for too many?
Ping Red for not allowing Blue sufficient time to get back a full 10m?
The usual sequence is for Blue to arrive with seven first. When Red only put three in, they have to allow Blue time to respond. A quick throw in does not allow time. Stop play and make it clear to both sides that you will not go along with attempts to manufacture a Free Kick. Retake the lineout.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#25
I would like to see the numbers FK rescinded from the Laws. It's simply tiresome to referee, I don't think it adds anything at all to the game. Teams never add extra players to get an advantage, it's a FK conceded through inattention, an open invitation to the throwers to arse about to try and milk a cheap FK.
wasn't this done with a fairly recent ELV and the idea dropped afterwards?

didds
 

crossref

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#26
wasn't this done with a fairly recent ELV and the idea dropped afterwards?

didds
The ELV was that either side could have any number in.
I diodn't mean that : I meant the Law should say that the numbers in the line should be matched, and the throw can't take place until they are.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#27
TBH, I think its all a bit mountains-out-of-molehills.

Just let teams get on with it. BUT... teams won;t win a FK by having a shortened line and throwing in before the oppo have had chances to equal it. I don;t see why the throwing team should lose the advantage of being set up and ready while the oppo drag their feet in arriving, just so a ref can create some equitable scenario that is not required in the laws. A FK for time wasting is just useless as it just provides even more chance for the oppo to soow the pace of the game down and set defences etc. aside from the fact that a FK is a total waste of time between the two 22s generally speaking. You could cover this in a PMB is needed I guess.

Lets just get on with the game rather than slowing it down.

didds
 

crossref

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#28
yeah, perhaps you are right. Perhaps it's a good thing to have the FK sanction available -- so that you don't have to use it.
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#29
The ELV was that either side could have any number in.
I diodn't mean that : I meant the Law should say that the numbers in the line should be matched, and the throw can't take place until they are.
Ahh! Gotcha.

IMO... nahh. Now the non throwing side can dictate the tempo of play. this doesn't actually mean time wasting - just stopping the throwers' from getting on with it.

didds
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#30
The usual sequence is for Blue to arrive with seven first. When Red only put three in, they have to allow Blue time to respond. A quick throw in does not allow time. Stop play and make it clear to both sides that you will not go along with attempts to manufacture a Free Kick. Retake the lineout.
For once I have to disagree with OB. All that does is slow the game down. If Red want to throw 3 v 7 that's their tactical decision. After all, if they win and go OTT they presumably have a numbers benefit and somewhere there is potentially a rather juicy size mismatch to exploit.

(caveat : natch none of this "6 in 6 in" and then turn up with 3. Though I'm not even nailed on 100% for that!)

didds
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#31
So, Red send three to the line (no ambiguity of intentions) and Blue send seven. Blue realizes their error and four Blue start to retire but Red immediately throw in and win the ball as Blue are not organized to defend.

Play on?
Ping Blue for too many?
Ping Red for not allowing Blue sufficient time to get back a full 10m?
Play on. nobody has broken any laws.

If at a scrum you realised defending blue had put all its backs on the blind side leaving red attack unmarked on the openside you wouldn't halt play to let blue sort themselves out.

lets get on with it.

didds

didds
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#32
For once I have to disagree with OB. All that does is slow the game down. If Red want to throw 3 v 7 that's their tactical decision.
If they throw before the opponents can re-group, then play advantage for the FK to the opponents. If things go wrong, the throwing side cannot claim a FK for numbers.

It is the throwing side slowing the game down by not announcing the short lineout. The law allows the opposition reasonable time to regroup.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#35
law reference for that one OB?

I wasn't aware the laws required a side to state their intention? Happy to be wrong! :)

didds
I didn't say that. It was the practical consequence of their choice. By not announcing the numbers they gave themselves the obligation of allowing the opposition a reaonable time to regroup, which slows the game down (or allows the opponents to have men coming back before reaching the offside line).
 
#36
Red has failed to allow time for Blue to regroup. 19.8 (e)

Note that19.8 (f) allows retiring players to rejoin play immediately if the throw is taken before they can get back into position.
They don't have to be allowed to 'regroup' , they merely have to have been given enough time to have left the lineout, indeed 19.8(f) existence means there is an expectation that the time allowance does have to be long enough to have reached the 10m point.

(e)
If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number of players in the lineout, their opponents must be given a reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout to satisfy this Law.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#37
is that really why you wouldn't ever ask ? in case they refused to tell you?

- It's such a slight danger, I think that's a rather fearful way to ref.
- I can only conceive of it happening in a game where the ref and the team were already in quite serious conflict. In that situation, if all co-operration/trust has gone already I agree it would be unwise to ask.
I've never had a numbers issue. I feel that by introducing the request and tell you are bringing unneeded nonsense into things. Just a waste of time.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#38
If you don't want to tell me fellas, that's fine. But just hang on there while I count, and the opposition count, then wait a bit longer while I give them the time they are entitled to, to match numbers......it could take us a while.

Just manage it.
If I heard a ref try that, I think he was a bit of a prat sorry.

Why are people making an issue of a simple matter?
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#40
I've never had a numbers issue. I feel that by introducing the request and tell you are bringing unneeded nonsense into things. Just a waste of time.
Why have you never had a numbers issue? Have you never met a team that tries to manufacture a numbers Free Kick?