Numbers in lineout

breako

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#1
I was reffing a game more at social level last week. One team kept telling me 5 man in the lineout but then they would have two in with the idea of the other 3 joining it late. because it was a lower level you could easily have players who weren't fully concentrating.

I thought this was messy so told them if they were doing anything other than a full lineout, they had to make it clear not just to me but to the other team that was the case. This meant clearly putting 5 in the lineout wait a few seconds and then continue - no late joiners as that was not making it clear.

Thoughts?
 

crossref

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#2
here you go

(d)
When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay. Players of either team must not leave the lineout once they have taken up a position in the lineout until the lineout has ended.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(e)
If the team throwing in the ball put fewer than the usual number of players in the lineout, their opponents must be given a reasonable time to move enough players out of the lineout to satisfy this Law.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

(f)
These players must leave the lineout without delay. They must move to the offside line, 10 metres behind the line of touch. If the lineout ends before they reach this line, they may rejoin play.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line


I would say you were quite right.
 

Taff

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#3
I openly admit that I struggle with numbers at LOs. By the time I've counted the throwing in side (harder than it sounds as some may be bent over, moving, obscured etc) then I have to move to do the same with the other side, I usually miss something else.

But I think I've found the solution. Since the start of last season I now mention in my PMB that I will assume that every LO is a full LO unless I get told differently. Trust me, it works like a charm and not 1 side has queried it.

In your case I think I would just manage it to start with eg "Come on boys. There's no reason why you need to delay the LO." If it starts getting stupid, delaying the LO is a FK offence, but I really doubt you would get to that stage.
 
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Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#4
I tell sides they don't have to tell numbers the non throwing side has the job of checking. Sorry counting is easy. "2 pods of three and a tail gunner = 7 or whatever". Late arrival means hard luck you are not getting a cheap whistle.
 

Accylad

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#5
I tell sides they don't have to tell numbers the non throwing side has the job of checking.
I think that the smooth running of the game is enhanced by getting a clear indication on numbers (if not a full line out) from the throwing in side. Personal decision of course but "How many red? - Blue, 6 man called" sets the position with clarity and makes for good management in my view.

To do otherwise just potentially injects tension into a part of the game that needs none, making teams consider trying to manufacture a numbers decision from the void created. We are all trying to find reasons not to blow the whistle after all, this is just more preventative refereeing.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#6
What do you do if Red does not answer? There is no requirement for them to tell you.

If Red are there and there is plenty of time for Blue to check, it is Blue's problem.

If Red arrive and throw immediately with no realistic chance for Blue to respond, play on.
 

crossref

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#7
I would like to see the numbers FK rescinded from the Laws. It's simply tiresome to referee, I don't think it adds anything at all to the game. Teams never add extra players to get an advantage, it's a FK conceded through inattention, an open invitation to the throwers to arse about to try and milk a cheap FK.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#8
I'd agree that it is pointless.

You can manage it before the game. "Don't come late to the line and expect to get a FK for numbers. Get there early and let the other side have time to respond." Tell them there are no cheap FKs and they'll get the message.
 

crossref

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#9
I'd agree that it is pointless.

You can manage it before the game. "Don't come late to the line and expect to get a FK for numbers. Get there early and let the other side have time to respond." Tell them there are no cheap FKs and they'll get the message.
yes, that's the way I ref. Other refs differ and when I am watching my son play a FK for numbers always irritates me (whichever way it goes!)
 

RobLev

Rugby Club Member
#10
What do you do if Red does not answer? There is no requirement for them to tell you.

If Red are there and there is plenty of time for Blue to check, it is Blue's problem.

If Red arrive and throw immediately with no realistic chance for Blue to respond, play on.
Unless of course Red gain an advantage from their breach of 19.8(e), in which case it's FK Blue on the 15m line.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#12
What material advantage are red going to get from putting fewer people in? They are not getting their FK. Yes they have extra people in the back line so a possible gain there.

Manage it ( Ask, tell, ping).
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#13
I think that the smooth running of the game is enhanced by getting a clear indication on numbers (if not a full line out) from the throwing in side. Personal decision of course but "[FONT=&amp]How many red? - Blue, 6 man called[/FONT]" sets the position with clarity and makes for good management in my view.

To do otherwise just potentially injects tension into a part of the game that needs none, making teams consider trying to manufacture a numbers decision from the void created. We are all trying to find reasons not to blow the whistle after all, this is just more preventative refereeing.

What do you do if Red does not answer? There is no requirement for them to tell you.

If Red are there and there is plenty of time for Blue to check, it is Blue's problem.

If Red arrive and throw immediately with no realistic chance for Blue to respond, play on.
So how about an answer to my question?

Red tell you, POLITELY, that they have no "legal requirement to tell you their numbers. So what do you do? Do you tell them you'll not FK non compliance from Blue - assuming Red arrive in good time?

OB you "liked" Accylad's post so, as an assessor, If you heard a referee ask Red to tell you and Red declined to do so, How would you expect the ref to respond?

For me telling them to give blue time to respond, as the law requires or they'll not get their FK (infact they risk conceding one) works. I'm not happy to "demand" compliance with a non law.
 

crossref

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#14
pegleg - to me it seems that you are imagining an extraordinarily difficult red team - ie a level of non-cooperation with the ref beyond what I have ever experienced.

If a ref did encounter that kind of insouciance then
1 - you'd want to know how you got there... what happened leading up to this
2 - it's not about lineout numbers, or not any more, it's about a breakdown in trust of the ref.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#15
Not at all. I just think that those who suggest asking should be prepared. I've never asked for numbers and never had an issue. I wounder why people want to add issues to an already complicated game.
 

crossref

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#16
95% of lineouts there is no numbers issue to manage, the two teams just sort it out all by themselves, numbers match and off we go.

If the teams are having trouble matching numbers - then it's either because of inattention or becasue the throwing team are arsing around, and we all have our own ways of managing that, which for most refs will at least sometimes include asking the throwing team how many they are putting in. I don't see why that's so contentious.

I'd be astonsihed if a throwing team refused to tell the ref. If it happened I'd think it was likely in a middle of a game with lots of serious problems going on.
 
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The Fat

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#17
One of the refs from my association (society) had a bit of a world trip earlier this year. Whilst in England he reffed a game (not sure what level) but he said that at the first line-out, the throwing in team say to him, as they are approaching the line-of-touch, "5 in Sir". Our ref says "Thank you" but is thinking "Why the f@$% are they telling me?"

It's not something we particularly worry about down here (not in my area at least).

If a team puts any less than the full compliment of players in the LO (let's say red is throwing in), as the ref we just say, "Numbers blue". Sometimes if it is obvious that hasn't registered I might say it again. If blue don't react, then it's advantage red/FK to red depending.

If red are slow to the LO or hang back and then move in with fewer numbers just prior to the throw, they are not getting a FK if blue hasn't had the opportunity to adjust numbers and they get told why.

Seems to work OK
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#18
Agree "The Fat" almost 100%. Except I'm not likely to mention it. IF Blue has ask for the numbers I'll tell them to count. It's not that dynamic a situation so I'm not inclined to help out. Very different from a tackle / ruck where the position of far more fluid.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#19
95% of lineouts there is no numbers issue to manage, the two teams just sort it out all by themselves, numbers match and off we go.

If the teams are having trouble matching numbers - then it's either because of inattention or becasue the throwing team are arsing around, and we all have our own ways of managing that, which for most refs will at least sometimes include asking the throwing team how many they are putting in. I don't see why that's so contentious.

I'd be astonsihed if a throwing team refused to tell the ref. If it happened I'd think it was likely in a middle of a game with lots of serious problems going on.

There may be 101 reasons why they may or may not wish to advertise their numbers. It's their business. It could be tactical. Who knows. The point is not WHY they dont wish to say. The point is they are not required to. So If you ask and they decline. What do you do?

Ping them? If so which law?

Back down and have your authority undermined?

Why make a rod for your own back?
 

crossref

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#20
Agree "The Fat" almost 100%. Except I'm not likely to mention it. IF Blue has ask for the numbers I'll tell them to count. It's not that dynamic a situation so I'm not inclined to help out. Very different from a tackle / ruck where the position of far more fluid.
With numbers I take the opposite view: I am inclined to help out, seems a more constructive way to ref.