[Maul] Maul - Legal collapse

Willehj

Rugby Club Member
#1
Hi

When a maul is collapsed (brought to the ground) legally by the team taking the ball in to the maul, does it become a ruck or a tackle?

Thanks

Huw
 

Dickie E

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#2
Hi

When a maul is collapsed (brought to the ground) legally by the team taking the ball in to the maul, does it become a ruck or a tackle?

Thanks

Huw
Hi Huw and welcome aboard.

There will be some variation of opinion on this but I'll open the bidding.

Point 1: Once it is a genuine maul, it will never turn into a tackle. However, there is often a pre-maul phase where the group of players are still in a dynamic situation. If this goes to ground, most referees will call this as a tackle.

Point 2: The ball carrier in a maul is entitled to go to ground with the ball (this is an important point because his team mates aren't entitled to "collapse the maul" to aid him going to ground).

Point 3: If the ball carrier does go to ground, the ball must be available to be played immediately (note that opponents who were bound to the ball carrier and also go to ground, do not need to release the ball). If not available immediately, scrum.

Point 4: If the opposing team somehow drive over the ball, it may become a ruck. In my experience, this is rare.

Point 5: If the ball carrier (who is on his feet) drops the ball to the ground and provided it isn't a knock on, a ruck may ensue. In my experience, this is rare.
 
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UpandUnder

Rugby Club Member
#3
The law book spells out pretty clearly how a maul must end. So to answer your question from the first 3 points below a maul cannot become a ruck or a tackle. there is no way a maul can become a ruck without the maul ending first.

It's a good idea to remember these 3 conclusions as armchair refs and fans have will have wildly differing theories

  • A maul ends and play continues when:
    • The ball or ball-carrier leaves the maul.
    • The ball is on the ground.
    • The ball is on or over the goal line.
  • A maul ends unsuccessfully when:
    • The ball becomes unplayable.
    • The maul collapses (not as a result of foul play).
    • The maul does not move towards a goal line for longer than five seconds and the ball does not emerge.
    • The ball-carrier goes to ground and the ball is not immediately available.
    • The ball is available to be played, the referee has called “use it” and it has not been played within five seconds of the call.
    • Sanction: Scrum.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#4
He he, two replies , and opposite answers!

Pity the 2018 Law Book didn't make the position clearer , as this comes up so often

FWIW I think Dickie's answer is correct , and well argued
 

Marc Wakeham

Moderator Attention - New Usergroup Required
#5
A collapsed maul is not really safe for "rucking". There are too many bodies around the ball. Ha. nd on the ball It's just a mess. That is why the law requires the ball to be available immediately. For me the only way a Maul can be come a ruck is if the ball and not the player goes to ground.


One of the problem is the "pseudo ruck" we have today. Bodies all over the place and the notion that the ball is to be played by the feet. In truth these post tackle pile ups are not that different from collapsed mauls in which "proper" rucking (playing the ball and not the man with the feet) is really just not safe.

The law is fudged and the result is this *******ized half way house of the "Muck" that is neither one not the other.
 

Balones

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#6
Please see my post from 9/12/17 in the Question Forum. Dickie is right in most aspects. I would not allow Point 4 for several reasons, mainly safety.
Followed by the post from Menace the day after.
 

Christy

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/ireland.p
#7
world rugby people , have already / previously giving guidance .
that a maul can become a ruck .

the referee isnt going to let point 4 happen , as you cant step across a collapsed ruck any way .

how i referee these situations is as follows .
maul has occurred & gone to ground legally .
im now saying loudly use it { if i feel ball is not available or looking to be made available i would blow whistle & award scrum turn over ball }

if i see ball is easily now going to be playable { which 50 % of them are }
im now policing off side lines as that of a ruck .
i wont allow players to come around who are on their feet & interrupt scrum half looking to play ball .
ill keep them back to hind foot .

i also wont allow opposition players who are already on floor , to interfere with ball ,,if they do ill penalty against same .

taken for granted , im not looking for opposition players who are already on top of the ball or on top of other players who are smothering ball ..to make ball playable .

so for me its about keeping a safe environment for all players & keeping off sidfe lines in play
 

Balones

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#8
world rugby people , have already / previously giving guidance .
that a maul can become a ruck .

the referee isnt going to let point 4 happen , as you cant step across a collapsed ruck any way .

how i referee these situations is as follows .
maul has occurred & gone to ground legally .
im now saying loudly use it { if i feel ball is not available or looking to be made available i would blow whistle & award scrum turn over ball }

if i see ball is easily now going to be playable { which 50 % of them are }
im now policing off side lines as that of a ruck .
i wont allow players to come around who are on their feet & interrupt scrum half looking to play ball .
ill keep them back to hind foot .

i also wont allow opposition players who are already on floor , to interfere with ball ,,if they do ill penalty against same .

taken for granted , im not looking for opposition players who are already on top of the ball or on top of other players who are smothering ball ..to make ball playable .

so for me its about keeping a safe environment for all players & keeping off sidfe lines in play
Unfortunately Christy I do see referees allow point 4; not very much at my usual level but certainly lower down. Obviously it is very much discouraged in the report if it does happen.
 

Pinky

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/scotland.
#9
I think point 4 happened once or twice this weekend in the 6 nations and in the Aviva Premiership, although maybe not always following a collapsed maul. It is a valid tactic to seek to counter-ruck opponents off the ball, and often this involved stepping over the original ball carrier and tackler and sometimes the arriving players who have piled on the top (on their feet, aye right)

BTW, welcome to the forum Huw. Dickie's answer is correct. So is upandunder, but remember that if the ball in a maul gets to the ground, although the maul is over, a ruck will likely have formed.
 

CrouchTPEngage

Slowing down these days
#10
What options are available to a defending team as the maul approaches and goes over the goal line?
My view was that, although its still a maul until the ball reaches (or is over) the goal line , the defenders cannot be pinged for side-entry or offside if they are in the in-goal area. This means that defender can unbind from the back of the mail as he crosses the in-goal and then run round to the side to attempt to stop the ball-carrier from grounding the ball.
Almost impossible to pull off, and the defender would have to be very careful - He would be pinged if he stepped out of the in-goal into the field of play in order to attempt to stop the ball carrier. ( And a penalty try, if this act prevented a try being scored )
Am I correct ?
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#11
sounds about right.

The chances of a defender "on the goal line" being able to stop the try scorer legally are pretty slim I'd imagine. Its not as if the BC waits until he has crossed the line particularly... from about a foot out its just a case of falling to the floor between his team-mates bodies

didds
 

Christy

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/ireland.p
#12
[FONT=fs_blakeregular, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the maul participants’ hindmost foot that is nearest to that team’s goal line. If that foot is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]so a maul , which has attacking team with ball in field of play , lets say less than meter from try line .[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]if defenders of a maul have been pushed over try line .
new defenders can now join maul from side , onto their own player who is already in maul .
so if maul close to side line , def fenders can come in from side , & if strong enough work on pushing maul out of play .
& they are still legal if they { providing already bound } now advance back into field of play .
[/FONT]
 

Pinky

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/scotland.
#13
[FONT=fs_blakeregular, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the maul participants’ hindmost foot that is nearest to that team’s goal line. If that foot is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line[/FONT]

[FONT=fs_blakeregular, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]so a maul , which has attacking team with ball in field of play , lets say less than meter from try line .[/FONT]
[FONT=fs_blakeregular, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]if defenders of a maul have been pushed over try line .
new defenders can now join maul from side , onto their own player who is already in maul .
so if maul close to side line , def fenders can come in from side , & if strong enough work on pushing maul out of play .
& they are still legal if they { providing already bound } now advance back into field of play .
[/FONT]
Christy, players joining mauls need to do so from onside position and by binding on to the hindmost player, so they may not be allowed to come in from the side as you suggest, depending on where the hindmost player is.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#14
Christy, players joining mauls need to do so from onside position and by binding on to the hindmost player, so they may not be allowed to come in from the side as you suggest, depending on where the hindmost player is.
I think the new law book makes the situation clear:
7. Players joining a maul must:
a. Do so from an onside position.
b. Bind on to the hindmost player in the maul.

Both a and b are needed, so a player cannot join in the side even in in-goal.
 

Christy

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/ireland.p
#15
I was replying to # 10 post from crouch tiger .
Where it was mentioned a maul crossing try line .
Yes i agree in field of play you join to hindmost / along side same player .

The 1st 3 lines of my post are also from 2018 law book .
And it states the off side line is the try line . ( as was in previous law book ) i think it was law 16.4

Therefore i was simply saying that where defenders get pushed over their own try line .
That new arriving defending players can join their team mates from infront of their own hind most player ..
( providing they are still inside in goal )
Existing players can also un bind from back & join ahead of where they were .

Other wise where there are short distances between try line & dead ball line
With a fence behind same .
You wouldnt expect players to jump over fence , to allow them join onto their hindmost player .from behind the fence
( this bit is obviously me exaggerating the scenario ,, but it might help me explain better )

Hope that explains , what i was trying to say earlier
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#16
hmm - isn't Christy correct here?

- a maul straddles the red goal line
- ball carrier is still in the FoP, so it's still a maul

OFFSIDE AT A MAUL
4. Each team has an offside line that runs parallel to the goal line through the maul
participants’ hindmost foot that is nearest to that team’s goal line. If that foot is on or
behind the goal line, the offside line for that team is the goal line.

5. A player must either join a maul from an onside position or retire behind their offside line
immediately. Sanction: Penalty.
6. Players who leave a maul must immediately retire behind the offside line. These players
may re-join the maul. Sanction: Penalty.
JOINING A MAUL
7. Players joining a maul must:
a. Do so from an onside position.
b. Bind on to the hindmost player in the maul.
Sanction: Penalty.
c. Have their heads and shoulders no lower than their hips. Sanction: Free-kick.


so red players behind the goal line can join from the side, as long as they still bind to the hindmost player
 

beckett50

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#17
I think the new law book makes the situation clear:
7. Players joining a maul must:
a. Do so from an onside position.
b. Bind on to the hindmost player in the maul.

Both a and b are needed, so a player cannot join in the side even in in-goal.
And there was me thinking that Maul can take place only in the Field of Play - unless you are already part of it :biggrin:
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Club Member
#18
I have it that they must join the maul in the normal way from behind the hind most foot, but can still bind alongside as long as they bind to that player, and if the maul extends into the in goal they do not have to retire if they are not joining. This allows them complete freedom to pounce on the bc in the maul or at the back of the maul should they break free to try to ground the ball.

So it is exactly as it was.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#19
I have it that they must join the maul in the normal way from behind the hind most foot, but can still bind alongside as long as they bind to that player, and if the maul extends into the in goal they do not have to retire if they are not joining. This allows them complete freedom to pounce on the bc in the maul or at the back of the maul should they break free to try to ground the ball.

So it is exactly as it was.
But the Law does not say they must join from behind the hindmost foot.
It says they must join from an onside position .
 

Pinky

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/scotland.
#20
But the Law does not say they must join from behind the hindmost foot.
It says they must join from an onside position .
And must bind on to the hindmost player in the maul. That may mean they cannot joint at the goal line depending on how far over the goal line the hindmost player is.