[In-goal] Maul in goal

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#21
Because OB said if a defender gained the ball (i.e. ripped it in the notamaul), then it wasn't held up.
Thanks - we must have been imaging different things; my image was of the defender ripping the ball and grounding it (or otherwise taking it away from the notamaul). If he's still in the maul then I probably won't have noticed the change in possession.
 
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OB..

, Advises in England
#22
Because OB said if a defender gained the ball (i.e. ripped it in the notamaul), then it wasn't held up.
I deliberately added "(necessarily)" because I realised the ball might still be held up. My point was that a defender stealing the ball does not necessarily mean it has been held up. He might get it free for a touch finder etc.
 

Pinky

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/scotland.
#23
I think you're over extending the "maul can't exist in goal" idea. What the law means is that, once the mass moves into in goal, offside lines disappear and a collapse (provided it is safe) is legal. There is no law stopping the mass from moving through in goal and over DBL.

A question for you. Maul moves into in-goal so you've already decided its either a try or held up. As you bring whistle to lips a defender wrests the ball out of the maul and runs 100m to score under posts. Bring it back for a 5 metre scrum?
Maul ends as soon as ball is over goal line. At that point I'm thinking, if attackers touch it down its a try, if not it's held up. i wouldn't stand about for 20s while someone ran the length of the pitch. Ripping it out of the maul once it is over the line is still held up for me.
 

Dickie E

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#24
Maul ends as soon as ball is over goal line. At that point I'm thinking, if attackers touch it down its a try, if not it's held up. i wouldn't stand about for 20s while someone ran the length of the pitch. Ripping it out of the maul once it is over the line is still held up for me.
Attacking ball carrier goes to ground and knocks ball on in the process. Scrum 5 to attacking team for held up?

If so, a quick shower and grab a beer at the off licence on the way home, I'd suggest.
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#25
Maul ends as soon as ball is over goal line. At that point I'm thinking, if attackers touch it down its a try, if not it's held up. i wouldn't stand about for 20s while someone ran the length of the pitch. Ripping it out of the maul once it is over the line is still held up for me.
So how long would you give the attacking team to touch down before calling it as held up? You're always going to hang around a bit to see if something happens and if that's long enough for the ball to come clear of the former maul, why stop play?
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
#26
So how long would you give the attacking team to touch down before calling it as held up? You're always going to hang around a bit to see if something happens and if that's long enough for the ball to come clear of the former maul, why stop play?
Is it a question of time? I think it's more a question of the possibility of resolution.
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#27
Is it a question of time? I think it's more a question of the possibility of resolution.
Sure, that's how I'd deal with it (maybe I didn't read Pinky's post very well - I interpreted it as him blowing up very quickly after the ball crossed the line). You wait until there's no possibility of a resolution, then give the try or held up, but if a defender's ripped the ball, or an attacker knocks on, there's your resolution.
 
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Elpablo73

Rugby Club Member
#28
I may be relatively new to refereeing but was told that it is about the picture being painted for you. If it is obvious that no-one is doing anything to show that something will happen, blow whistle and 5m attacking scrum; if there is a good chance of a ground, give them that chance, until you think they've had enough time to ground it or it no longer looks probable, then blow whistle and 5m scrum.

I would also give a 5m attacking scrum if the defending team have possession when the mauls goes into the in-goal and they don't paint a picture that they are able to get the ball back into the field of play.

IMHO the only way a maul going into the in-goal is not being either a try or 5m attacking scrum is if:

  • as the ball crosses the goal line, it is ripped immediately by the defending side and it is grounded (a drop-out) or
  • as the ball crosses the goal line, it is ripped immediately by the defending side and gotten out of the in-goal (play on).
 

Elpablo73

Rugby Club Member
#30
Immediately - without delay; at once.


This is a personal measure and is a very small amount of time. Possibly how long it take you to decide the ball has crossed the goal line. So ranging from it is being ripped as the ball is crossing the line, to saying "the ball has crossed the goal line, the ball has been ripped".
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#31
Immediately - without delay; at once.


This is a personal measure and is a very small amount of time. Possibly how long it take you to decide the ball has crossed the goal line. So ranging from it is being ripped as the ball is crossing the line, to saying "the ball has crossed the goal line, the ball has been ripped".
That doesn't sound very fair to me. I presume you're not saying the attacking team have to get the ball down immediately, so why do the defending team have to rip the ball immediately?
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#33
If the defending team doesn't rip immediately I would be giving a held-up in goal (22.10). 5m attacking scrum
But why immediately? You'll give the attacking team time to get the ball to ground, why not let the defending team have the same amount of time to rip the ball?

Blowing for the ball being held up is what happens when the players haven't resolved the situation on their own and should be considered a last resort (albeit one that's more frequent than the other outcomes).

While the situation is still evolving, let the players get on with it. The attacking team are wanting to touch down, the defending team are wanting to get the ball into TiG or to rip it (though they'll often settle for holding it up). Only if neither side succeeds in doing that (or if the attacking side infringe) should you award an attacking scrum 5.
 

Elpablo73

Rugby Club Member
#34
DocY

As I said when I originally posted my response I am relatively new to refereeing so was putting forward my limited experience of this situation. I do still believe that the majority of outcomes of a maul going in goal would be beneficial to the attacking team.

However, you have given me pause for thought that if, whilst this collection of players is still moving, the defending side should be given the chance to do something with the ball, whether it be rip it and ground it, rip it and return it to the field of play or take everything TiG.

Just a follow-on question: If the defending successfully rip the ball and they are held up, how do we restart the game? 22m DO because it was taken in by the attacking side, 5m defending scrum or something else?
 

chbg

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#35
Still Attacking 5m scrum:


22.10 Ball held up in-goal

When a player carrying the ball is held up in the in-goal so that the player cannot ground the ball, the ball is dead. A 5-metre scrum is formed. This would apply if play similar to a maul takes place in in-goal. The attacking team throws in the ball.


When ANY player carrying the ball is held up, the attacking team throw in to a 5m scrum. (Emphasis, not shouting!)
 

tim White

, Referees in England
#36
If a 'non-maul' has moved into in-goal this is a potential try scoring position; If it still moving and the ball carrier has close support why would you not wait a few seconds to see if a try can be scored -if I had possession I would not be happy if the ref blew up when all I had to do was get to ground (accepting you cannot wait forever). I would suggest if it is still moving and is then forced over the dead ball line by defenders that a 5m scrum to the defenders is the most equitable outcome, you gave the attackers every chance to do something but the defenders defended it successfully.:shrug:
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#37
I would suggest if it is still moving and is then forced over the dead ball line by defenders that a 5m scrum to the defenders is the most equitable outcome, you gave the attackers every chance to do something but the defenders defended it successfully.:shrug:
it may or may not be equitable (I am not sure) but surely it's clearly wrong in Law.
 

Dickie E

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#38
If a 'non-maul' has moved into in-goal this is a potential try scoring position; If it still moving and the ball carrier has close support why would you not wait a few seconds to see if a try can be scored -if I had possession I would not be happy if the ref blew up when all I had to do was get to ground (accepting you cannot wait forever). I would suggest if it is still moving and is then forced over the dead ball line by defenders that a 5m scrum to the defenders is the most equitable outcome, you gave the attackers every chance to do something but the defenders defended it successfully.:shrug:
I was about to click 'like' until I got to this:

forced over the dead ball line by defenders that a 5m scrum to the defenders