[Law] Knock On advantage.. and kick

crossref

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#21
The OP is a kick that goes accidental into touch

The opposite scenario is

Black attacking knock on about 10m from white goal line
White gather ball, ref signals advantage
Under no special pressure white kick for touch
But the kick is very badly sliced and goes directly into arms of black 11 who falls over the line for a try.

A no adv, scrum white
B You called advantage when they kicked , try black

I don't suppose anyone will give a different answer

- - - Updated - - -

The OP is a kick that goes accidental into touch

The opposite scenario is

Black attacking knock on about 10m from white goal line
White gather ball, ref signals advantage
Under no special pressure white kick for touch
But the kick is very badly sliced and goes directly into arms of black 11 who falls over the line for a try.

A no adv, scrum white
B You called advantage when they kicked , try black

I don't suppose anyone will give a different answer
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#22
a diufferent answer to what?

empathetically its A of course.

but under the concepts and protocols that are in place (see OBs posts above) its C&O actually B. Them's the rubs.

And I raised that scenario in #15. Just sayin'.



didds

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a diufferent answer to what?

empathetically its A of course.

but under the concepts and protocols that are in place (see OBs posts above) its C&O actually B. Them's the rubs.

And I raised that scenario in #15. Just sayin'.



didds
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Club Member
#23
I'd say B.

I've always learnt that he difference between kicking under a penalty- and a scrum advantage is whether you wait to see what happens when it lands.
 

shnipvanwinkel

Moderator Attention - New Usergroup Required
#24
The OP is a kick that goes accidental into touch

The opposite scenario is

Black attacking knock on about 10m from white goal line
White gather ball, ref signals advantage
Under no special pressure white kick for touch
But the kick is very badly sliced and goes directly into arms of black 11 who falls over the line for a try.

A no adv, scrum white
B You called advantage when they kicked , try black

I don't suppose anyone will give a different answer

- - - Updated - - -

The OP is a kick that goes accidental into touch

The opposite scenario is

Black attacking knock on about 10m from white goal line
White gather ball, ref signals advantage
Under no special pressure white kick for touch
But the kick is very badly sliced and goes directly into arms of black 11 who falls over the line for a try.

A no adv, scrum white
B You called advantage when they kicked , try black

I don't suppose anyone will give a different answer
I think it is fair to say that in a goal-line defense situation white 10 is under at least some pressure - hypotheticals are fine but I have never seen a clearance kick that hasn't been made under at least some chase-down by the oppo.

- - - Updated - - -

The OP is a kick that goes accidental into touch

The opposite scenario is

Black attacking knock on about 10m from white goal line
White gather ball, ref signals advantage
Under no special pressure white kick for touch
But the kick is very badly sliced and goes directly into arms of black 11 who falls over the line for a try.

A no adv, scrum white
B You called advantage when they kicked , try black

I don't suppose anyone will give a different answer

- - - Updated - - -

The OP is a kick that goes accidental into touch

The opposite scenario is

Black attacking knock on about 10m from white goal line
White gather ball, ref signals advantage
Under no special pressure white kick for touch
But the kick is very badly sliced and goes directly into arms of black 11 who falls over the line for a try.

A no adv, scrum white
B You called advantage when they kicked , try black

I don't suppose anyone will give a different answer
I think it is fair to say that in a goal-line defense situation white 10 is under at least some pressure - hypotheticals are fine but I have never seen a clearance kick that hasn't been made under at least some chase-down by the oppo.
 

Zebra1922

Moderator Attention - New Usergroup Required
#25
B for me, and I'd try to call advantage over before the kick. If there is clean possession from the tackle/ruck following the knock on, once the ball comes back from that tackle/ruck, or even once it is clearly available, you are effectively in the same position as if there had been scrum, clean possession and the ability to do what you choose. If they muck up the kick, tough luck.
 

crossref

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#26
Back to this one , slightly different scenario

Red knock on, play adv to blue

Blue attempt a drop goal

Is it
a) adv over when he kicks it, just the same as the last question, crossef, leave it alone . Or
b) ah, that's a good one , in this instance I would wait and see if it goes over or not
 

menace

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#27
For me..it would depend on the amount of pressure on the kicker. Did he play it as he wanted? And then assess outcome.
 

Taff

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#28
... Which is your decision?
A No advantage gained. Scrum Red
B Advantage Over when they kick it. Not my fault the kick turned out terrible. Line out blue
I've asked this question at a Society meeting and were told it was A.

If the kicker makes a hash of his kick, no advantage has been gained.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#30
I've asked this question at a Society meeting and were told it was A.

If the kicker makes a hash of his kick, no advantage has been gained.
I have never thought that view made much sense. The standard question about a kick under advantage is "was the kick a free choice or under pressure?" I see no reason why the same logic should not apply to an attempted drop goal.
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#31
My view, FWIW, in the punt scenario is that the quality of the kick is the most important thing - a good clean kick is probably advantage over, squirting off the outside of the boot is probably not.

I do think the drop goal situation is different, though, and should generally end in advantage over.

If it didn't, we'd see teams taking their 'free drop goal attempt' after nearly every scrum infringement in the opposition 22.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#32
My view, FWIW, in the punt scenario is that the quality of the kick is the most important thing - a good clean kick is probably advantage over, squirting off the outside of the boot is probably not.
If the bad kick is not due to defensive pressure, I would say that is advantage over - the player might have done just the same after a scrum. The actual outcome was entirely his own fault.
 

Elpablo73

Rugby Club Member
#33
As a guide, I went through this decision tree:

  1. Was the kicker free to exercise all options? No - Go back for the Scrum.
  2. If the ball was cleanly, or had been cleanly, kicked and it had landed in the field of play, would the kicker's team have had enough tactical or territorial advantage for me to call advantage over? No - Go back for the Scrum.
  3. Advantage is over
If a kicker is under no pressure and knowing kicks or tries to kick the ball, but makes a mistake and it goes out on the full, why would we give them a second chance?
 

crossref

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#34
OK so perhaps it's time to really set the cat amongst the pigeons

There seems to be a clear majority view, well supported, then when a scrum advantage is being played to blue, and then under no particular pressure, a blue player executes a deliberate. clean kick .. then advantage is over. ie You don't wait to see the outcome of the kick.

So Scenario 3 ..
- Red 10 carries the ball into the blue in goal, but is tackled and loses the ball forwards
- Blue 10 picks up the loose ball, and referee plays advantage
- Under no particular pressure Blue kicks it...

Adv over right....

(I'll get my coat)
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#35
yes.

He CHOSE under NO PRESSURE to kick rather than dot down and receive a 22 d/o. Or 5m scrum whatever the latest interpretations about knocking on in-goal offer and not withing to start another 200 post sideline thread on it..

Same as having picked up the ball he runs it out of in-goal to 10m out, is held up by oppo and driven back inside the in-goal where it all collapses and the oppo are given a 5m attacking scum as a consequence.

didds
 

Dickie E

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#36
OK so perhaps it's time to really set the cat amongst the pigeons

There seems to be a clear majority view, well supported, then when a scrum advantage is being played to blue, and then under no particular pressure, a blue player executes a deliberate. clean kick .. then advantage is over. ie You don't wait to see the outcome of the kick.

So Scenario 3 ..
- Red 10 carries the ball into the blue in goal, but is tackled and loses the ball forwards
- Blue 10 picks up the loose ball, and referee plays advantage
- Under no particular pressure Blue kicks it...

Adv over right....

(I'll get my coat)
Ball pops out of Red's hands and Blue 10, no doubt expecting a try, is taken by surprise, catches or picks up ball and puts boot to it. In reality, unless its a fortuitously great kick, I'd consider him under pressure and go back for scrum.
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#37
OK so perhaps it's time to really set the cat amongst the pigeons

There seems to be a clear majority view, well supported, then when a scrum advantage is being played to blue, and then under no particular pressure, a blue player executes a deliberate. clean kick .. then advantage is over. ie You don't wait to see the outcome of the kick.

So Scenario 3 ..
- Red 10 carries the ball into the blue in goal, but is tackled and loses the ball forwards
- Blue 10 picks up the loose ball, and referee plays advantage
- Under no particular pressure Blue kicks it...

Adv over right....

(I'll get my coat)
You naughty man!