killing own player in lineout

capithad

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#1
Game on Saturday - dumb situation #2

Lineout to Gold. Gold catches high and clean. On the way back down, gold player in front catches jumper's leg by mistake, sending jumper horizontal, and he lands hard. Green plays no part in this snafu. If they had, it would have been penalty, dangerous play, maybe more.

But in this case, do you play on, or penalise the accidental foul?

More generally, what is the law for fouling your own side (obviously, inadvertently)?

Cheers
 

Rushforth

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#2
Accidents do happen. Fouls are not judged on intent (deliberate v accidental) but on the facts. However, they are against the opponent, by definition, almost universally.

Incompetence against an opponent? Count back from red, if he lands BEYOND the horizontal. Yellow possible if he doesn't land on head/neck, but rather on back side.

Incompetence with a team-mate? At U13 we don't have kicks here in Holland, at U15 or U17 I would call captain and the dangerous player, explain that it would be red if done on an opponent, and give the attacking side the scrum.
 

The umpire

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#3
It's a free kick to Green for Gold not lowering their own player safely.

(never seen one given, mind you)
 

Ian_Cook

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#4
It's a free kick to Green for Gold not lowering their own player safely.

(never seen one given, mind you)
Hmmmm.

I think this is the Law you are referencing...

19.10 OPTIONS AVAILABLE IN A LINEOUT
(g) Lowering a Player. Players who support a jumping team-mate must lower that player to
the ground as soon as the ball has been won by a player of either team.
Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line


...but I am not at all sure that this was intended to penalise a player for losing control of his team-mate, otherwise it would be dangerous play and a PK not an FK. I think this Law is to make it an infringement to keep the player up in the air after the ball has been won.

IMO, the Law that applies here is...

10.4 DANGEROUS PLAY AND MISCONDUCT
(j) Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst
that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come
into contact with the ground is dangerous play.
Sanction: Penalty kick


NOTE: This is the only Law in 10.4 that refers to the victim as a "player" not an "opponent". To me this indicates that it applies to any player whether he is a team-mate or an opponent.
 

Rushforth

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#6
NOTE: This is the only Law in 10.4 that refers to the victim as a "player" not an "opponent". To me this indicates that it applies to any player whether he is a team-mate or an opponent.
Thank you Ian_Cook for this note.

I don't believe it applies in this case "Gold catches high and clean. On the way back down"...

... but I strongly appreciate the message all the same.
 

Ian_Cook

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#7
If the rationale for pinging a player under 19.10(g), who doesn't support his team-mate in that situation, is Dangerous Play, then why is it only a FK?
 

The umpire

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#9
Hmmmm.

I think this is the Law you are referencing...
Yes, that was the one that came to mind.

Although I have noticed of late a tendency for televised rugby teams to keep their jumpers in the air far longer than is necessary. Perhaps in the hope of winning just such a penalty from the opposition, or am I being to cynical? What other reason could they have?
 

crossref

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#10
The umpire:286718 said:
Hmmmm.

I think this is the Law you are referencing...
Yes, that was the one that came to mind.

Although I have noticed of late a tendency for televised rugby teams to keep their jumpers in the air far longer than is necessary. Perhaps in the hope of winning just such a penalty from the opposition, or am I being to cynical? What other reason could they have?
Because while they are in the air they cannot be tackled?
 

Rushforth

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#14
Not really sure what "facts" mean in this context but I would more severely sanction a swing and a miss than accidental contact.
Today - at my IRB2 course - the example was given of a player swung at with a poor haymaker who collapsed in the clear sight of the referee, despite not having been just missed, but missed by almost two feet (half a metre).
 

Dickie E

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#15
Today - at my IRB2 course - the example was given of a player swung at with a poor haymaker who collapsed in the clear sight of the referee, despite not having been just missed, but missed by almost two feet (half a metre).
What is an IRB2 course and what was the point being made from that example?
 

Rushforth

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#16
What is an IRB2 course and what was the point being made from that example?
IRB = international rugby board. Level 2 is the level between the touchy feely 1-day course I did 4 years ago and the full IRB level 3 which is by invitation only and involves potential international opportunities. I've had those but not as a referee.

The point that was made that if a "swing is made" (no contact) and the player "swung at" collapses to the ground in full view of an incredulous referee who noticed that the swing and the chin were not even vaguely near, the diver was penalised.
 

The Fat

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#17
It's a free kick to Green for Gold not lowering their own player safely.

(never seen one given, mind you)
Hhhmmm....
I'll have to go on a search, but I know that this was definitely the case in Australian U19 Variations in 2009 but not sure about adult rugby. Maybe those of us believing it is a FK offence are carrying something from juniors into seniors?

I'll check my law books from 2009 on (don't have anything earlier) to see if it is still in U19s or was only ever in age grade rugby as a variation.
I have awarded a FK in juniors for not bringing the jumper down safely after an earlier word to the captain and lifters.
I have chatted senior players that they are responsible for bringing their player down safely after they claimed foul play by the opposition when clearly it was a case of their own lifters dropping their own jumper. Have never given a FK for it in seniors but would have if necessary believing (perhaps wrongly) that it was in the LoTG.
 

menace

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#18
I will put my hand up and say that I've PK a senior team for not bringing their lineout jumper safely to ground. Basically they hoisted him up and when they missed the throw they just dropped him and he toppled forward head first. One realised in the last second what he'd done and just broke his fall. I had no hesitation awarding the PK.

When the capt queried me I just told him that his lifters had a responsibility to look after his jumpers safety and if they won't then I'll have to deal with it.
 

damo

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#19
I have seen it FKed in a senior club game. Good job too.

Frankly if it is really dangerous like Menace's example I could not find fault with a PK for dangerous play either.
 

crossref

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#20
Hhhmmm....
I'll have to go on a search, but I know that this was definitely the case in Australian U19 Variations in 2009 but not sure about adult rugby. Maybe those of us believing it is a FK offence are carrying something from juniors into seniors?

I'll check my law books from 2009 on (don't have anything earlier) to see if it is still in U19s or was only ever in age grade rugby as a variation.
I have awarded a FK in juniors for not bringing the jumper down safely after an earlier word to the captain and lifters.
I have chatted senior players that they are responsible for bringing their player down safely after they claimed foul play by the opposition when clearly it was a case of their own lifters dropping their own jumper. Have never given a FK for it in seniors but would have if necessary believing (perhaps wrongly) that it was in the LoTG.
Ian's post above #4 has the Law references.
Law 19 - Not lowering your own player is specifically = FK.
Law 10 - general restriction on lifting players and lettig them fall on heads = PK