[Junior] Giving cards in U19 games?

ru-campbell

Referees in Scotland
#1
Hi everyone, I was just wondering about what the general consensus is with giving yellow/red cards to U19 players? I was playing in an U18 game last weekend where one of our players committed a dangerous dump tackle which in my eyes would have been a clear yellow card offence in a senior match, although only a penalty and warning was given.
Given that I have been refereeing a few U15/U16 games recently where cards are allowed to be given, I was just wondering whether other refs tends to be slightly more lenient on age-grade players in this area? If I saw a clear punch to the face, I would not hesitate in giving a red card, however, if it was a professional foul after a build-up of penalties which prevented a try being scored, I would be slightly less sure about giving a card. What does everyone else think? Cheers, Ruairidh
 

Iron_Lung

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#3
If anything, I was taught to err on the less lenient side when dealing with juniors. Dangerous tackles and foul play had more strict standards and it was more a case of junior players getting a YC/RC when a senior player would have gotten a lesser sanction. For example, we were instructed not to play advantage for dangerous/late tackles but to pull it up immediately.

In general though, why would you treat them differently?
 

crossref

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#5
don't forget cards start at u13 in England

for violent play I think RC/YC to same standards (or even stricter) than adults, right down to U13.

a YC for technical or cynical offences, or for team offences, though, are less likely to make sense for normal 12 year olds .
 

ru-campbell

Referees in Scotland
#6
don't forget cards start at u13 in England

for violent play I think RC/YC to same standards (or even stricter) than adults, right down to U13.

a YC for technical or cynical offences, or for team offences, though, are less likely to make sense for normal 12 year olds .
Cards start at U15 in Scotland.

Thanks for this, I've been given conflicting advice on the issue, hence why I came here looking for advice. From what I'm getting here, it would seem as though cards should be given as normal, although for the younger ages it just needs to be well explained if a technical foul.
 

Dickie E

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#7
Cards start at U15 in Scotland.

Thanks for this, I've been given conflicting advice on the issue, hence why I came here looking for advice. From what I'm getting here, it would seem as though cards should be given as normal, although for the younger ages it just needs to be well explained if a technical foul.
I'd suggest you talk to your local people - referee development officer, coach, society, whatever is appropriate. They may have some special focus that us from around the world may not be aware of.
 

crossref

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#8
One way to look at it (not foolproof) is that a card shouldn't really come as a surprise to the players. That can be helpful for when to give cards for technical offences
 

menace

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#9
I'd suggest you talk to your local people - referee development officer, coach, society, whatever is appropriate. They may have some special focus that us from around the world may not be aware of.
Good advice - in Oz we certainly have some different standards in some areas of play.
For eg, u18 and lower, even a punch that doesn't connect is supposed to be a RC. There is no wriggle room. The intent is to make it clear that punching/fighting will not be tolerated.

Cards start at U15 in Scotland.
Ummmm can someone in Scotland explain the brains behind this....unusual local rule?
Don't you want to upset the cherubs? Do you think that you'll hurt their feelings and suppress their confidence too much if they Are sent from the field?

So what do you do with the u13/14 yo players that lack discipline? Do you just have a word with the coach and 'politely insist' the naughty boy is subbed for a rest??
 

TigerCraig

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#10
Cards start at U15 in Scotland.
Do you use a "soft yellow" (ie player goes off for a think about himself but can be replaced) or is it just a free for all

Under 13 up is full Under 19 rules here, and due to kids and parents watching pro rugby on telly there is an expectation that cards will be used liberally.
 

chrismtl

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#11
I tend to be harder on stuff that could potentially be dangerous to the players, but more relaxed on things like repeated infringements or professional fouls as most people around here at the U18 level don't have the understanding yet. This is especially accurate with our schools teams, who tend to be made up of lots of athletes, but about 90% only play rugby in school or it's their first year. Lots of ice hockey and american football players with little knowledge of the game. Our basic guidelines outside of D1 Juvenile (basically U17) is to make the game safe and fun and let the kids learn the sport.

That being said, the only U19 team we have in the area is a regional representative team and I hold them to the same standard as regular club rugby.
 

Paule23

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#12
Did you talk to the referee after the game? You said "I'm your opinion", the referee may have seen it differently, from a different angle and did not think iterated a card.

Or he was being lenient, only one way to know for sure.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#13
I can't see why any referee would apply a higher tollerance to foul play just because the player was "young". With regard to YCs for "technical offences" I can see a different tollerance based on ability NOT age. I believe that the law book itself sets the tone with law10.3(c).
 

crossref

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#14
when I used to ref U13 u14, my observations were

- its rare that an offence could really be called 'cynical' , they don't have the level of sophistication or awareness

- it can make sense to YC an individual player for repeated offence by him -- Ask-Tell-PK-PK-YC works just fine. Obviously need to make sure at each step that they do understand you

- team warnings are not a good idea - I once saw a referee attempt to do that with boys that were too young. His warning was not communicated or understood by all the team (in fact by hardly any of them!) and two minutes later a poor kid received a YC that was - from his perspective - completely out of the blue, unfair, and unexpected. He cried and the referee looked like a dick :)
(no it wasn't me!)
 

Shelflife

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#15
when I used to ref U13 u14, my observations were

- its rare that an offence could really be called 'cynical' , they don't have the level of sophistication or awareness

- it can make sense to YC an individual player for repeated offence by him -- Ask-Tell-PK-PK-YC works just fine. Obviously need to make sure at each step that they do understand you

- team warnings are not a good idea - I once saw a referee attempt to do that with boys that were too young. His warning was not communicated or understood by all the team (in fact by hardly any of them!) and two minutes later a poor kid received a YC that was - from his perspective - completely out of the blue, unfair, and unexpected. He cried and the referee looked like a dick :)
(no it wasn't me!)
Id respectfully disagree crossref, a few seasons back a rule was brought in that there would be no YC at u15 or under. It was a nightmare. There was in one game persistent infringing that would make Richie blush, they knew that no yellow card could be issued and just constantly were off side at ruck time (last 10mins inside their 22 defending a 5 point lead) in at the side ,killing the ball all secure in the knowledge that no cards were coming. It was horrible to watch and ref.

In that instance I eventually awarded a Pen Try as I felt that a try would have been scored had they not been offside in that instance,it was a quick tap pen that they were not back 10. It was a soft PT but fully deserving giving the cynical play that had preceded it.
 

Dave Sherwin

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#16
At U15 level, if I needed to do a "team warning", I certainly wouldn't expect the captain to do it. I'd put time off, ask all of that team to come in and explain the issue and the potential sanction.
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#17
Agree thatI'd give the talking to and not expect the captain to do it. That said, anyone who thinks U15s or U14s don't know how to play the cynic's card is deluding themselves.
 

Iron_Lung

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#18
If you don't have the option of a YC, you could try speaking with the coach and inviting him to substitute the offending player. That would probably only work for dangerous play rather than cynical offences. In the case that Shelflife talks about in #15, I think your only option would be to PK them off the park, but that's an ugly situation to try and deal with, particularly if it's done with the complicity of the coach.
 

Dixie

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#19
Ummmm can someone in Scotland explain the brains behind this....unusual local rule?
Don't you want to upset the cherubs? Do you think that you'll hurt their feelings and suppress their confidence too much if they Are sent from the field?

So what do you do with the u13/14 yo players that lack discipline? Do you just have a word with the coach and 'politely insist' the naughty boy is subbed for a rest??
In Scotland, the default attitude of any 15 year-old boy is that he'll nut you, knife you and nick your wallet if you disrespect him in any way - particularly by carding him in front of his mates. At 16, they are beginning to exercise sufficient self-control to realise that this isn't always a smart move. In recognition of this maturity, they get to vote for the Nationalists.
 

crossref

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#20
Id respectfully disagree crossref, a few seasons back a rule was brought in that there would be no YC at u15 or under. It was a nightmare. There was in one game persistent infringing that would make Richie blush, they knew that no yellow card could be issued and just constantly were off side at ruck time (last 10mins inside their 22 defending a 5 point lead) in at the side ,killing the ball all secure in the knowledge that no cards were coming. It was horrible to watch and ref.

In that instance I eventually awarded a Pen Try as I felt that a try would have been scored had they not been offside in that instance,it was a quick tap pen that they were not back 10. It was a soft PT but fully deserving giving the cynical play that had preceded it.
although - my post was about U13/U14 and I think your counter example is from an u15 game?

I don't disagree with you though, I think that the RFU policy, YC from U13 upwards is about right, and the cards are there to be used.

I was saying that team offences are not often appropriate at youngest ages in that range (u14 and u13) but fully agree that in the game you had, whatever the age was, you'd want to use one.

In which case just as DS says above I'd call the whole team in to give the warning, I wouldn't expect the captain to do it [But I'd end the warning by telling the captain he now had a moment to talk to his team.. signaling that I am still considering him to be the captain, I haven't replaced him]