Flag up, ball not in touch

Phil E

, Referees/Trains Referees in England
#61
One of the problems I have is that the Club TJ forgets to put his flag up, or only puts it up when he finally gets to the line of touch.

So I see a player near the line, a few shouts, I look at the TJ (who is behind play) and his arm is down.
I carry on then look back again and he is standing at the point of in-touch with his arm up (with or without flag).

Grrrrrrrrrr
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#62
it's true that an incorrect flag may cost one team a try.

but it's also true that the confusion caused by a clear flag, but a call of play-on may gift one team a try ...


Not everyone on the pitch will hear the play-on call, and I have sympathy for players who stop when the TJ puts his flag up.
What happened to "play the whistle"?
Another good reason to obey the law requiring the referee to whistle to indicate that the ball is in touch.

If the referee sees a TJ get it wrong, I expect him to over-rule.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#63
What happened to "play the whistle"?.
well, OB.. as you say lots of referees don't always whistle when the ball is in touch.

but also a TJ flag is kinda like a whistle, it's a signal from an official, and it's a signal that a referee would go back and return to even if he missed it at the time. It's not like - say - a knock on, where if the ref missed it, well, he missed it.

So I have a lot of empathy for a player who stops when a TJ flag goes up.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#65
well, OB.. as you say lots of referees don't always whistle when the ball is in touch.
They should.

but also a TJ flag is kinda like a whistle, no it isn't it's a signal from an official,no he isn't and it's a signal that a referee would go back and return to even if he missed it at the time. It's not like - say - a knock on, where if the ref missed it, well, he missed it.

So I have a lot of empathy for a player who stops when a TJ flag goes up.
As you may have gathered, I have none.
 

leaguerefaus

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#66
As you may have gathered, I have none.
Take your referee's hat off a minute, champ. I'm yet to meet a player who wouldn't stop when the TJ signals touch. And fair enough too IMO. Players should be able to assume that a TJ has a basic level of competence.
 
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The Fat

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#67
Take your referee's hat off a minute, champ. I'm yet to meet a player who wouldn't stop when the TJ signals touch. And fair enough too IMO. Players should be able to assume that a TJ has a basic level of competence.
If the TJ has been plucked from the crowd and is the one who finally gives in and reluctantly takes the flag and trudges over to the far side touch line, it would be dangerous for players to assume that he has ANY idea of what he is doing.
If we have a guy who volunteers, and then jumps the gun by raising his flag before the ball has gone into touch (and we all know what a gem Law 19 is don't we?) and the referee, who is close by (and let's be clear here, the ref is not going to over-rule the TJ if he is some distance away and in a position where his play on call may not be heard by those close to the ball), gives a loud shout of "PLAY ON", the players who have a whinge will get no sympathy from me.

Would you be happy to have a first time TJ make 3 incorrect decisions during a game and have the ref go along with it even if he can clearly see the TJ got it wrong?

It would be better to have a friendly/respectful chat with him along the lines of, "Jumped the gun a little bit there. Don't worry about the players, just give yourself time to make sure the ball is clearly out before you raise your flag. You're doing a good job".
 
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leaguerefaus

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#68
If the TJ has been plucked from the crowd and is the one who finally gives in and reluctantly takes the flag and trudges over to the far side touch line, it would be dangerous for players to assume that he has ANY idea of what he is doing.
If we have a guy who volunteers, and then jumps the gun by raising his flag before the ball has gone into touch (and we all know what a gem Law 19 is don't we?) and the referee, who is close by (and let's be clear here, the ref is not going to over-rule the TJ if he is some distance away and in a position where his play on call may not be heard by those close to the ball), gives a loud shout of "PLAY ON", the players who have a whinge will get no sympathy from me.

Would you be happy to have a first time TJ make 3 incorrect decisions during a game and have the ref go along with it even if he can clearly see the TJ got it wrong?

It would be better to have a friendly/respectful chat with him along the lines of, "Jumped the gun a little bit there. Don't worry about the players, just give yourself time to make sure the ball is clearly out before you raise your flag. You're doing a good job".
I'm saying I understand why players stop when the TJ raises his flag.

Quite frankly I think nearly any moron should be able to raise a flag when someone steps out. Obviously there are some cases in union where this does become a little confusing due to the strange touch laws.
 

Blackberry

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#69
One of the problems I have is that the Club TJ forgets to put his flag up, or only puts it up when he finally gets to the line of touch.

So I see a player near the line, a few shouts, I look at the TJ (who is behind play) and his arm is down.
I carry on then look back again and he is standing at the point of in-touch with his arm up (with or without flag).

Grrrrrrrrrr
Me too, so now when I speak briefly to my touch judges I say "No matter where you are, as soon as you see the ball in touch stick your flag up... even if you're 50 metres away, just stick it up "as soon as"
 

Taffy

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#70
At my grass roots level I rarely have a touch judge with much of a clue. I do however make a point of seeing them before hand and if they look particularly young and/or clueless saying "As high as you can with the flag please and I will always go with you, your call". And then I always thank them and thank them again after the match.

But it seems to me that the least the club could do at say Level 10 and above provide a reasonably clued up guy to do a job that can be pretty important. I liken it to a battle in a war where there are huge periods of nothing and boredom followed by sudden activity which as a touch judge ends up with everyone looking at you saying "What happened there then?".

A thankless task I fear...
 

beckett50

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#72
One of the problems I have is that the Club TJ forgets to put his flag up, or only puts it up when he finally gets to the line of touch.

So I see a player near the line, a few shouts, I look at the TJ (who is behind play) and his arm is down.
I carry on then look back again and he is standing at the point of in-touch with his arm up (with or without flag).

Grrrrrrrrrr
A common problem with ClubTJs; and one of which you (and your fellow brethren) are all aware. That being the case why not address it when the ClubTJ comes and introduces himself pre-match to inform you that he his the TJ by saying words along the line of "as soon as you judge the ball to be in touch - irrespective of whether you are up with the line of play - put your flag up so I can see it"

Of course, if you disagree with his assessment of the ball being in touch, e.g. player pats the ball back into play legally, you can give a loud shout of "Play on! Player landed in the field of play" etc and have a word at the next stoppage/lineout on his/her side.

I appreciate that this approach falls flat on its arse when the guy running touch is the FR replacement who is waiting to join the fry and will forget to pass over the flag when he so does :sad:
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#73
Would you be happy to have a first time TJ make 3 incorrect decisions during a game and have the ref go along with it even if he can clearly see the TJ got it wrong?
.
we are talking about the specific scenario where a TJ raises his flag, and the referee happens to be positioned such that he can clearly see WHY the TJ raised the flag AND can see that the TJ is clearly wrong.

So this isn't likely to happen three times

but if it did, we have a fiasco in the making whatever we do.
No of course I wouldn't be happy with a TJ wrongly stopping the game three times.
but I'd suggest that if in a single game TJ flag goes up, and you shouted PLAY ON, three times.... then this would also be very uncomfortable for everyone. I don't think you'd have a happy 30 players on the field.

I'd suggest if it happened twice you'd replace the TJ
 

beckett50

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#74
Oh yes he is!

DEFINITIONS
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees
In the traditions of pantomime "Oh no he isn't" because he hasn't been properly appointed to the match by the organising authority. They don't have the power of the Flag nor do they have the authority to be consulted on aspects of foul play etc.

That is not to say that he shouldn't be accorded your protection should the crowd/players/coaches get on his back.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#75
In the traditions of pantomime "Oh no he isn't" because he hasn't been properly appointed to the match by the organising authority. They don't have the power of the Flag nor do they have the authority to be consulted on aspects of foul play etc.

That is not to say that he shouldn't be accorded your protection should the crowd/players/coaches get on his back.
Oh yes he is!

You need to read Law 6 -- the TJ is clearly an official. Of course he is not the same as an AR, and has very resticted set of powers, but he clearly is an official

DEFINITIONS
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees. Additional persons, as authorised by the match organisers may include the reserve referee and/or reserve assistant referee, an official to assist the referee in making decisions by using technological devices, the time keeper, the match doctor, the team doctors, the non-playing members of the teams and the ball persons.
A touch judge may be appointed by a match organiser or a team involved in a match and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal and the success or otherwise of kicks at goal.
An assistant referee may be appointed by a match organiser and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal, the success or otherwise of kicks at goal and indicating foul play. An assistant referee will also provide assistance to the referee in the performance of any of the referee’s duties as directed by the referee.
 
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SimonSmith

, Referees in America, Rank Bajin!
#76
USA Rugby are quite clear that club TJs are Match Officials, and that abuse against them is the same as referee abuse.

They have, at least, got that one right.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#77
I'm saying I understand why players stop when the TJ raises his flag.
I can understand why they sometimes make that MISTAKE. Why should they benefit from it?

Quite frankly I think nearly any moron should be able to raise a flag when someone steps out. Obviously there are some cases in union where this does become a little confusing due to the strange touch laws.
The problem only arises if it is a tricky decision where the TJ should not have signalled.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#78
Oh yes he is!

DEFINITIONS
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees
Technically I concede, and that is certainly the case for protecting him from abuse. However in practice he is usually totally unqualified in low-level games.
 

Dickie E

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#79
At my grass roots level I rarely have a touch judge with much of a clue. I do however make a point of seeing them before hand and if they look particularly young and/or clueless saying "As high as you can with the flag please and I will always go with you, your call".
Always???