Flag up, ball not in touch

OB..

, Advises in England
#41
But as crossref says we do not have coordinated fixtures for the different sides in a club so they can be heading to the four winds.
In some CBs their lower XVs play in the main leagues, so I once checked to see if they were co-ordinating the teams. It looked as if they generated the fixtures for each league independently using their standard Berger Lite algorithm.

I suggested to the RFU Competitions people that modern software would easily solve the problem, but they weren't interested. Surely some major company must already have the programs and number-crunching facility to do a once a year run for all RFU competitions? Suitable publicity might even persuade them to do it for free.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#42
where we are the competitions are all organised by different people.
For instance 1st XV might play in RFU League..
2nd XV in the Zoo Shield
3rd XV in the Middlessex Merit

and other variations..

all with different organisers.
 

Dickie E

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#43
and I believe in England you can only AR if you've been formally appointed. So if Nigel Owens was out walking his dog & offered to run touch, he wouldn't be able to be an AR. Over here, as long as you're qualified, you can be an AR.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#44
and I believe in England you can only AR if you've been formally appointed. So if Nigel Owens was out walking his dog & offered to run touch, he wouldn't be able to be an AR. Over here, as long as you're qualified, you can be an AR.
I think I'd take the risk and appoint him myself
Or more properly, if you happen to spot Jerome Garces and and Nigel Owens on your touchline, you could call the society and ask them to quickly make two appointments.
 

menace

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#45
I think I'd take the risk and appoint him myself
Or more properly, if you happen to spot Jerome Garces and and Nigel Owens on your touchline, you could call the society and ask them to quickly make two appointments.
Not a chance in hell would I allow them to AR for me.....they will only end up trying to referee the game! They wouldn't be able to help themselves.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#46
Dickie E:309351 said:
and I believe in England you can only AR if you've been formally appointed. So if Nigel Owens was out walking his dog & offered to run touch, he wouldn't be able to be an AR. Over here, as long as you're qualified, you can be an AR.
What's interesting to me about this is the trust that is given. In England, as you can see from the comments, we don't entirely trust club appointed TJs. And yet in Australia you trust club appointed ARs.. That's intriguing. Assuming your system works, you have to wonder what's got wrong for us.
 

Dickie E

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#47
What's interesting to me about this is the trust that is given. In England, as you can see from the comments, we don't entirely trust club appointed TJs. And yet in Australia you trust club appointed ARs.. That's intriguing. Assuming your system works, you have to wonder what's got wrong for us.
You soon get a feel for whether or not a clubbie is trustworthy
 

Dixie

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#49
and I believe in England you can only AR if you've been formally appointed. So if Nigel Owens was out walking his dog & offered to run touch, he wouldn't be able to be an AR. Over here, as long as you're qualified, you can be an AR.
I think I'd take the risk and appoint him myself
Or more properly, if you happen to spot Jerome Garces and and Nigel Owens on your touchline, you could call the society and ask them to quickly make two appointments.
A cautionary tale on exactly that point:

One year, a team near me (not quite the closest - the next town) were doing quite well and I was unappointed on the weekend they played a County Cup semi-final at home, so I went and watched the game. Asked the home coach if I could relieve him of the burden of running the line, and he agreed. As with the Away side flagsman, I was of course a TJ rather than an AR.

Some time in the second half, all hell broke loose from a ruck 5m infield on my side. It started with an Away flanker putting a haymaker on an offside home flanker who was getting away with murder, and then escalated. The ref's view was obscured by the ruckers - some of whom were actually on their feet!

Ref dealt with it well - whistle, step back, observe who is running in from a distance, try to remember who threw the worst punches - until he decided to ask me what started it and whether a card was warranted. I was reluctant as I would be unable to write any report and his report could not really admit to approaching a TJ. Ref wanted to be able to get one from each side off for 10, so I gave him the number. It didn't go down well with the Away team, whose on TJ had a few people he wanted to report. Ref lost the goodwill of the Away side, and struggled to hold it together thereafter.
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#50
Not a chance in hell would I allow them to AR for me.....they will only end up trying to referee the game! They wouldn't be able to help themselves.
Try "I don't believe we've met. I'm the referee. Now go over there and wave your flag when it goes into touch"
 

Dickie E

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#51
A cautionary tale on exactly that point:

One year, a team near me (not quite the closest - the next town) were doing quite well and I was unappointed on the weekend they played a County Cup semi-final at home, so I went and watched the game. Asked the home coach if I could relieve him of the burden of running the line, and he agreed. As with the Away side flagsman, I was of course a TJ rather than an AR.

Some time in the second half, all hell broke loose from a ruck 5m infield on my side. It started with an Away flanker putting a haymaker on an offside home flanker who was getting away with murder, and then escalated. The ref's view was obscured by the ruckers - some of whom were actually on their feet!

Ref dealt with it well - whistle, step back, observe who is running in from a distance, try to remember who threw the worst punches - until he decided to ask me what started it and whether a card was warranted. I was reluctant as I would be unable to write any report and his report could not really admit to approaching a TJ. Ref wanted to be able to get one from each side off for 10, so I gave him the number. It didn't go down well with the Away team, whose on TJ had a few people he wanted to report. Ref lost the goodwill of the Away side, and struggled to hold it together thereafter.
I understand that you are constrained by your rules but they are bad rules. Bit like an off-duty copper walking away from a crime cos he's clocked off. YMMV
 

FlipFlop

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/switzerla
#52
I think the main issue in England (and lots of other places) is that there is no "proof" of being a trained TJ/AR or Referee. Yes there might be a certificate, but doing a course 10 years ago and doing nothing inbetween doesn't make you a ref or AR.

Some of the worst coaches/ref critics start off with "I'm a ref you know, and...." - and if you dig into it a bit, they did a mini reffing course 15 years ago when their kid was playing U8 tag.

A club TJ has no requirement to be trained.

Over here we try and get TO3s to the top level games, but have had to change the policy on the level of ref we appoint as AR. Too many of the new refs/lower levels, were not able to be a good enough AR to justify the cost to the teams of the extra bodies, or to the Society for the extra travel expense. They missed the crucial issues, or couldn't provide numbers, or....
 

Pegleg

Rugby Club Member
#53
I think I'd take the risk and appoint him myself
Or more properly, if you happen to spot Jerome Garces and and Nigel Owens on your touchline, you could call the society and ask them to quickly make two appointments.
We can't do the first. Any calls leading to cards would be inadmissable so the cardi would fall. Although, in the case of a RC, at least the prat is off the pitch.

The second is perfect. We can do that. Just as if I was at the park to watch a game and the ref did not turn up a quick call to the appointment officer could get me appointed.
 

The Fat

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#54
I think the main issue in England (and lots of other places) is that there is no "proof" of being a trained TJ/AR or Referee. Yes there might be a certificate, but doing a course 10 years ago and doing nothing inbetween doesn't make you a ref or AR.

Some of the worst coaches/ref critics start off with "I'm a ref you know, and...." - and if you dig into it a bit, they did a mini reffing course 15 years ago when their kid was playing U8 tag.
.
At least we have a MyRugby Card that has current qualifications and expiry dates (although not necessarily completely up to date if a new accreditation has been obtained in between card issue dates ).
Luckily, in my area, we all pretty much know each other and all of our ARs would have their full kit with them 99% of the time.
 

Dixie

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#55
I understand that you are constrained by your rules but they are bad rules. Bit like an off-duty copper walking away from a crime cos he's clocked off. YMMV
So do you ever end up with a TJ on one touchline and an AR on the other? That se to me to be a problem in the making.
 

The Fat

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#57
So do you ever end up with a TJ on one touchline and an AR on the other? That se to me to be a problem in the making.
I've had that situation on a few occasions and not had a problem. I get the AR to take the sideline where the team benches are (which is almost always the crowd side as well) so that he can look after subs etc.
If I know who the TJ is early enough, I just ask him for touch decisions and successful kicks at goal only and that the AR will chat to him behind the posts as to positioning/agreeing before raising his/her flag. This way the TJ gets a little coaching from the AR and hopefully the TJ will be keen to do the job again.
I have also been in the position of being the AR in this situation as well. I talk to the TJ as much as possible (always on the hunt for recruits). As either the ref or the AR, I always make sure to thank the TJ (and get my flag back).

As for the OP, I have over-ruled a TJ's decision re a player in touch. Ball in field of play, blue winger running down right hand touch line with right foot in touch and left foot in field of play as he kicks a rolling/bouncing ball with his left foot to keep it in play. TJ put his flag up, I called "Play on". A little further down field the winger knocked-on while attempting to gather the bouncing ball now on about the 5m line.
I blew for the knock-on however, I went back to where the TJ had indicated "in-touch" to confirm my decision to play-on with him. A quick explanation to captains as we headed back for the scrum.
TJ had a chat with me after the game and wanted to make sure he fully understood the "player in touch ball in field of play" thing. He was genuinely happy to learn that part of the law. I have seen the same guy run touch a few times since. Hoping to get him to take up the whistle.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#58
As for the OP, I have over-ruled a TJ's decision re a player in touch. Ball in field of play, blue winger running down right hand touch line with right foot in touch and left foot in field of play as he kicks a rolling/bouncing ball with his left foot to keep it in play. TJ put his flag up, I called "Play on".
it's quite a big deal to call play on when the flag goes up, as many players may have stopped already...
 

The Fat

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/australia
#59
it's quite a big deal to call play on when the flag goes up, as many players may have stopped already...
I was close to play and clearly saw the ball was not in touch. A loud call of "Play on".
Any player who then stops and complains that the flag was up = bad luck for them.
What if the winger hadn't knocked on and had regathered to score a try but was then incorrectly brought back for a line out to the opposition. That would be a big deal.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#60
I was close to play and clearly saw the ball was not in touch. A loud call of "Play on".
Any player who then stops and complains that the flag was up = bad luck for them.
What if the winger hadn't knocked on and had regathered to score a try but was then incorrectly brought back for a line out to the opposition. That would be a big deal.
it's true that an incorrect flag may cost one team a try.

but it's also true that the confusion caused by a clear flag, but a call of play-on may gift one team a try ...


Not everyone on the pitch will hear the play-on call, and I have sympathy for players who stop when the TJ puts his flag up.