Ball dropped while trying to score

Steve70

Player or Coach
#1
Quick one this...

Player drops ball as he crosses the line and it rolls forward, but not TIG, or over the DBL.

No-one does anything - they all look at it.

If defenders make it dead, it's a 22 DO.

If defenders pick it up and try and play on, then advantage to them...?

If attacker realises and tries to jump on it after he's dropped it, then knock-on and scrum 5 to defenders?

Nobody does anything though - so then it's a knock on, and scrum 5 with defenders put-in...?


Happened the other day. Everyone stopped and looked at the ball, then me. They all thought "oh, that's it, he's dropped it, it's a restart ..." And I gave a 22DO. But I guess I could've shouted 'still in play..?' And waited for someone to do something with it?
 

Bunniksider

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#2
Your 22DO restart was a mistake but if both teams bought it and play resumed without any problems, happy days. Though a learning point for next time.

Knock on in (or into) in goal is specifically covered in law:

12.1 The outcome of a knock-on or throw forward

(c) Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.

(d) Knock-on or throw forward inside the in-goal. If a player of either team knocks-on or throws-forward inside the in-goal, a 5-metre scrum is awarded in line with the place of infringement not closer than 5 metres from the touchline. .
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Club Member
#3
Assuming it's a knock-on, I'd have shouted "knock-on advantage (defenders), play on". I don't want to ruin their chance of a 100m break and glorious counter-try, after all.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#4
but surely
- if an attacker knocks it on, and a defender gathers it and runs up field - play on
- if a defender knocks on, and an attacker grounds it to score a try - try
 

ChrisR

Player or Coach
#6
but surely
- if an attacker knocks it on, and a defender gathers it and runs up field - play on
- if a defender knocks on, and an attacker grounds it to score a try - try
.... and a fine example of the inequity of current law. Don't get me started .......
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Club Member
#8
I'd call a 22D/O (or a try in the reverse case) an advantage over a scrum. So they can... what's the problem?

(c) Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.
What ought one do when the knock-on occurs on the line (or within ~3m), next to a post? It's not a 5m scrum, but at the spot. So... shift everything along until the scrum is just safely outside the posts?
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#9
I'd call a 22D/O (or a try in the reverse case) an advantage over a scrum. So they can... what's the problem?

?
I think they can't have a 22 D/O as the advantage because (e)

8.3 When the advantage law is not applied
(a) Referee contact. Advantage must not be applied when the ball, or a player carrying it, touches the referee.
(b) Ball out of tunnel. Advantage must not be applied when the ball comes out of either end of the tunnel at a scrum without having been played.
(c) Wheeled scrum. Advantage must not be applied when the scrum is wheeled through more than 90 degrees (so that the middle line has passed beyond a position parallel to the touchline).
(d) Player lifted in the air. Advantage must not be applied when a player in a scrum is lifted in the air or forced upwards and has no support on the ground. The referee must blow the whistle immediately.
(e) After the ball has been made dead. Advantage cannot be played after the ball has been made dead.


but I don't really like this argument -- if red knock on inside the blue 22m, and blue kick for touch, we do call advantage over, and have the lineout.
 
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Nigib

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#10
I'd call a 22D/O (or a try in the reverse case) an advantage over a scrum. So they can... what's the problem?



What ought one do when the knock-on occurs on the line (or within ~3m), next to a post? It's not a 5m scrum, but at the spot. So... shift everything along until the scrum is just safely outside the posts?
You can't have a scrum In Goal. The place for the scrum is on the 5m in line with where the offence occurred
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#11
.... and a fine example of the inequity of current law. Don't get me started .......
So why are you choosing to restart a discussion we have already had elsewhere recently? Nobody disputes that a defender can pick up the ball and run with it. The dispute was because the law gives a scrum 5 if he grounds it, whereas you would prefer it to be a 22.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#12
So why are you choosing to restart a discussion we have already had elsewhere recently? Nobody disputes that a defender can pick up the ball and run with it. The dispute was because the law gives a scrum 5 if he grounds it, whereas you would prefer it to be a 22.
But OB.. what Law are relying on to say that the ref can't play advantage and then award a 22m DO (when the knock on takes place in goal) ? The Law doesn't specifically cover the scenario of the defender grounding the ball
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Club Member
#13
I think they can't have a 22 D/O as the advantage because
(e) After the ball has been made dead. Advantage cannot be played after the ball has been made dead.[/LAWS]
I don't read that as a disqualification - the ball's not been made dead at the time advantage is being played. Making it dead is an act that follows the advantage being given. No? Or does this law really mean that a ball cannot be made dead while advantage is being played?

You can't have a scrum In Goal. The place for the scrum is on the 5m in line with where the offence occurred
It doesn't require a scrum in goal, although it may require some scrummagers in-goal. The point is - 12.1 c) and d) are clearly and explicitly different. When it's knocked from the field of play into the in-goal, the scrum is from the point of the infringement, not the 5m line.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#14
the Law again --

(a) Unintentional knock-on or throw forward. A scrum is awarded at the place of infringement.


c) Knock-on or throw forward into the in-goal. If an attacking player knocks-on or throws-forward in the field of play and the ball goes into the opponents’ in-goal and it is made dead there, a scrum is awarded where the knock-on or throw forward happened.

that's clear enough. No dropout available

(d) Knock-on or throw forward inside the in-goal. If a player of either team knocks-on or throws-forward inside the in-goal, a 5-metre scrum is awarded in line with the place of infringement not closer than 5 metres from the touchline.

this is worded differently - it's like (a) - I am coming round to the view that if you play advantage (and why shouldn't you) and defenders touch down then it should be a drop out. After all if they kicked it way upfield into touch you'd give a line out.
 
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DocY

Rugby Club Member
#15
I am coming round to the view that if you play advantage (and why shouldn't you) and defenders touch down then it should be a drop out. After all if they kicked it way upfield into touch you'd give a line out.
Precisely! I can't see anything in law that says this isn't allowed. The only credible reasoning I've heard for it not being so was in another thread last week: advantage is played to reduce stoppages. But as you say, if the ball had been hoofed into touch, that could well be treated as advantage.

My general feeling on advantage (as mentioned re the final penalty in the France Ireland game) is "would the players be happy with you calling advantage over?". In this case, I reckon they'd be happy with you calling advantage over just before they touch down - happier than saying "no advantage. Defending scrum".

An IRB ruling on this would be nice.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#16
(d) Knock-on or throw forward inside the in-goal. If a player of either team knocks-on or throws-forward inside the in-goal, a 5-metre scrum is awarded in line with the place of infringement not closer than 5 metres from the touchline.

this is worded differently - it's like (a) - I am coming round to the view that if you play advantage (and why shouldn't you) and defenders touch down then it should be a drop out. After all if they kicked it way upfield into touch you'd give a line out.
(d) still says the consequence of a knock-on in in-gioal is a scrum. The question is whether the defenders can get the advantage of a drop out by grounding the ball. That action makes the ball dead. No advantage has been gained before the ball is made dead and law 8 says advantage cannot be played after the ball is dead.

If they chose to pick it up and kick to touch, of course you can play advantage - they may prefer to give the opposition the throw in further up field rather than have the throw-in at a 5m scrum.
 

crossref

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/england.p
#17
(d) still says the consequence of a knock-on in in-gioal is a scrum. The question is whether the defenders can get the advantage of a drop out by grounding the ball. That action makes the ball dead. No advantage has been gained before the ball is made dead and law 8 says advantage cannot be played after the ball is dead.

If they chose to pick it up and kick to touch, of course you can play advantage - they may prefer to give the opposition the throw in further up field rather than have the throw-in at a 5m scrum.
(a) says the consequence of any knock on is a scrum --- but we all know that doesn't rule out advantage instead.

So it's this that is the crux

(e) After the ball has been made dead. Advantage cannot be played after the ball has been made dead.


BUT if that means they cannot touch down for a 22m, it also (surely) would mean they couldn't kick it out for a lineout... But they can
AND if that means they cannot touch down for a 22m, it also (surely) would mean that attackers can't touch down a defensive KO for a try ... but they can

I am thinking they CAN touch down for a DO.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#18
I have looked back at the history of this bit of law.
At that time, Law 14 referred to in-goal and Law 17 to a knock-on or throw-forward.

1978
14 (3) Except where a try or goal is scored, if an attacking player kicks, carries, passes or knocks the ball and it travels into his opponents' in-goal either directly or after having touched a defender who does not wilfully attempt to stop, catch, or kick it, and it is there grounded buy a player of either team, or goes into touch-in-goal or over the dead ball line a drop out shall be awarded.
17 Note (3) If an attacking player knocks-on in the field of play and the ball travels into in-goal either directly or after having touched a defender who does not wilfully attempt to stop, catch, or kick it, and it is there grounded by a player of either team, or goes into touch-in-goal or over the dead ball line a drop out shall be awarded.


1981
14 (3) Except where the ball is knocked on or thrown forward or if an attacking player kicks, carries or passes the ball and it travels into his opponents' in-goal either directly or after having touched a defender who does not wilfully attempt to stop, catch, or kick it, and it is there grounded buy a player of either team, or goes into touch-in-goal or over the dead ball line a drop out shall be awarded.
17 Note (iii) if an attacking player kicks, carries, passes or knocks the ball and it travels into his opponents' in-goal either directly or after having touched a defender who does not wilfully attempt to stop, catch, or kick it, and it is there grounded buy a player of either team, or goes into touch-in-goal or over the dead ball line, a scrummage should be awarded at the place of the knock-on or throw-forward.

(There were some incremental changes between 1978 and1981)

I think this makes it unequivocally clear that the aim was to change the law from awarding a drop-out to awarding a scrum. I don't see that there has been a significant change in the law since then.
 

DocY

Rugby Club Member
#19
I think this makes it unequivocally clear that the aim was to change the law from awarding a drop-out to awarding a scrum. I don't see that there has been a significant change in the law since then.
To me, the situation being described here sound more like they're referring to knock-ons into in goal, rather than knock-ons in goal.
I remember players waiting for a knocked-on ball to travel into in-goal then claiming the DO and that is what this was trying to stop (though it was a long time ago and my memory is a bit hazy).
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#20
(a) says the consequence of any knock on is a scrum --- but we all know that doesn't rule out advantage instead.
Agree, but that is because Law 8 says advanatge can take precedence over other laws. In this case if you apply Law 8, it tells you it does not apply after the ball is dead.

So it's this that is the crux

(e) After the ball has been made dead. Advantage cannot be played after the ball has been made dead.


BUT if that means they cannot touch down for a 22m, it also (surely) would mean they couldn't kick it out for a lineout... But they can
Not if they ground it first. A knock-on does not make the ball dead.
AND if that means they cannot touch down for a 22m, it also (surely) would mean that attackers can't touch down a defensive KO for a try ... but they can
Yes, the try is scored when the attacker grounds the ball and thus makes it dead. Up to that point advantage could be played

I am thinking they CAN touch down for a DO.
After my excursion into history I am 100% certain that the intention of the law is to disallow the award of a dropout following a knock-on or throw-forward. It was deliberately and explicitly changed.