2 questions: Pushing players over and being off your feet to pass

BrummieRef

Rugby Club Member
#1
Afternoon all,

A couple of queries about some habits our players (U 10's) have picked up and I'm penalising them for at the moment as it does not look right rather than its against a rule I can find.

The first is a tackle is made and the BC team mate stands over the ball preparing to ruck. An opposition player comes in and pushes the opposition player to the ground or on top of the BC. There is no attempt in the ruck bind on and until there is a push there is no contact. He is entering the ruck as a plan landing. The opposition player then steps over all three players and protects the ball as a counter ruck. I'm currently disputing he can do this as it's dangerous and he is intentionally collapsing the ruck. Is this correct?

The second is after a ruck has happened the Scrum half picks up the ball but has a habit of dropping to his knees and then passing the ball. Other than being a bad habit is he breaking the rules? I think he has the option to pass/getup/release/pass if he is not under pressure from the opposition.
 

OB..

, Advises in England
#2
The first is a tackle is made and the BC team mate stands over the ball preparing to ruck. An opposition player comes in and pushes the opposition player to the ground or on top of the BC. There is no attempt in the ruck bind on and until there is a push there is no contact. He is entering the ruck as a plan landing. The opposition player then steps over all three players and protects the ball as a counter ruck. I'm currently disputing he can do this as it's dangerous and he is intentionally collapsing the ruck. Is this correct?
Unless the opponent is trying to bind to form a ruck, he is, by definition, playing an opponent without the ball. In old money that was 10.4 (f). PK.

The second is after a ruck has happened the Scrum half picks up the ball but has a habit of dropping to his knees and then passing the ball. Other than being a bad habit is he breaking the rules? I think he has the option to pass/getup/release/pass if he is not under pressure from the opposition.
Bad technique, but legal. Perhaps he (or his coach) thinks it protects him from getting tackled?
 

didds

, Resident Club Coach
#3
Wrt scenario 1... players need to bind onto a ruck - under new laws etc etc (just reminding myself here really!) does standing over the ball +tackled BC now mean a ruck has formed so anybody else must BIND?

If so then OB is bang on - PK/free pass/whatever it is at U10 in England.

Agree with OB's synopis of scenario 2. IF its cos the coach thinks this makes him safe from being tackled or summat, said coach needs to consider providing his players with proper skjills not perceived gotchas (even IF the gotcha was technically correct - which it ain't!)

didds


didds
 

Flish

Rugby Club Member
#4
I discourage all forms of pushing in minis games, it’s not what we teach them, and as suggested above potentially dangerous. I’ve pulled up minis players many times for pushing and it’s never been questioned.
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Club Member
#5
It's u10 and you should be looking for a reason to play on and provide the necessary coaching to improve their skills and understanding.

even materiality has little significance at this level.
 

Rich_NL

Rugby Club Member
#6
First point - a player joining a ruck must bind.

Second point - Is the SH taking a few steps and then passing as he drops to his knees? It might just be an attempt to look cool like they do on the telly when they do the diving passes. As long as it's not dangerous, I'd say it's more a matter for the coaches. If they're doing it in response to an impending tackle though, I'd call it dangerous.
 

outcast

Rugby Club Member
#8
players need to bind onto a ruck - under new laws etc etc (just reminding myself here really!) does standing over the ball +tackled BC now mean a ruck has formed so anybody else must BIND?
Yes, I believe that's the case with the introduction of the latest GLTs. I think it was to stop people "doing an Italy"! :)
 

BrummieRef

Rugby Club Member
#9
First point - a player joining a ruck must bind.

Second point - Is the SH taking a few steps and then passing as he drops to his knees? It might just be an attempt to look cool like they do on the telly when they do the diving passes. As long as it's not dangerous, I'd say it's more a matter for the coaches. If they're doing it in response to an impending tackle though, I'd call it dangerous.
No SH is dropping to his knees and then passing from that position. As you can imagine the rucks and tackles are very messy in this age group with players going off there feet more times than not. I think it really is a bad habit rather than illegal.

Thanks from the input everyone. I will check out the new rules with regard to a ruck being formed with just one player standing over the Ball and tackled BC.
 
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Jolly Roger

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/scotland.
#10
Hi BrummieRef

In response to your second point
The second is after a ruck has happened the Scrum half picks up the ball but has a habit of dropping to his knees and then passing the ball. Other than being a bad habit is he breaking the rules? I think he has the option to pass/getup/release/pass if he is not under pressure from the opposition.
I coached minis for 5 seasons a few years back and am familiar with what your report.
From my experience this is not something coached but a habit at younger age groups.

My assessment is this:
SH coming into the back of a ruck to collect ball has to reach down to pick up ball with hands. SH should keep head up to see threats and to observe opportunities. Adult and teen SH will adopt a wide stance and drop their hips in order to reach down whilst keeping head up. Younger kids will tend to have a narrower stance with both feet across the pitch facing forwards. Therefore if they bend to pick up the ball they will drop their head down exposing back of head, neck and upper back (like when you are touching your toes).
Possibly because they don't have the strength in their legs or because they are not used to the movement (haven't been taught it) they don't spread their legs and drop their hips to lower torso, instead they drop onto one knee so they can still pick up the ball with head up and then pass across their other leg which has foot planted on the ground.

If they are going onto both knees then I suggest that this is about confidence because they have been tackled a few time by players coming through rucks (at U10 the ruck defence will be pretty weak) and so if they keep low they can protect themselves by falling on the ground. Personally, I would not concern yourself about it unless you think it is dangerous. The only things that are important at these age groups are safety, enjoyment, respect and development of skills. Just let them play and maybe discuss as a coaching point after the game.
 

Jolly Roger

<img src="http://www.rugbyrefs.com/flags/scotland.
#11
Hi BrummieRef

Point 1 is covered in the 2018 Law Book as follows:

Law 9 Foul Play

15. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player who is not in possession of the ball must not
hold, push, charge or obstruct an opponent not in possession of the ball.


As the ariving player has not joined the ruck he/she is guilty of foul play. In order to join the ruck they have to bind so “pushing” to the ground whilst bound would then be a ruck clearout.

Acknowledgement to ChrisR for highlighting this new wording of the law in a different thread on this Forum